What is the moral difference between sex work and other forms of work?

[MooFeatures]

Hear me out. I know the two are different, and that and that a person selling their body (indeed, their consent) for sex is morally different to other types of work which they wouldn’t engage in if that financial incentive (coercion?) wasn’t present. I’m not questioning this position... I’d just like to be able to fully articulate why the two are different. All explanations gratefully received

Before I even start trying to verbalise my train of thought: general purpose warning, I may be getting this wrong! And, on the whole, I'm firmly on the "prostitution is horrible" side of things. But I'm also, firmly, a rationalist. So I'll try to have a stab at this:

In essence, I'm wondering if - from an ethical/philosophical perspective - we may be looking at this in a backarsewards way. Here's why:

So, dehumanising, personal, intimate, whatever: that's from a recipient's (i.e. the prostitute's POV). It is also, therefore, all inherently vulnerable to a "but some people enjoy X" line of argument. And, like it or not, this is valid and suggests the issue is "how?" rather than "that".

Personally, I empathise to some degree. I'm reasonably laid back about sex and I absolutely get that there is a shitton of grey area in between "rape" and "best orgasm of a lifetime".

I think the issue is another one entirely and entirely independent of whether or not some women are personally okay with physical contact up to and including sex in exchange for payment:

I think the real moral issue is punters. More specifically: the expectation that men should be entitled to have sex no matter how attractive, kind, handsome, repulsive or otherwise they are. And that all these (and more) qualifying criteria don't matter but that there should exist a mechanism that, basically, overrides normal prerequisites of consent.

The major moral issue, individual cases/circumstances aside, would seem to be that there seems to be an expectation from men - as a class - that just so long as they're in a position to cough up a few quid, they should be getting sex. Regardless of whether they're the type that women swoon over or some bloke who noone in their right mind would ever consider sleeping with if money weren't a consideration.

I'm probably explaining this really, really poorly. I'm sorry, it's been a long, shit, week. But, to summarise perhaps: I think it's hard to globally define disadvantages that would apply to every single prostituted woman out there. But there are arguably some major issues with how men come to be punters.

In the same way that rape is not theft (but if you can buy sex then is rape just theft?)

No (I think you mean robbery not theft) because you can buy iPhones and cars but you can also steal them.

"No (I think you mean robbery not theft) because you can buy iPhones and cars but you can also steal them."

By this logic it's Yes, men can purchase sex can and also steal it.

I believe the point is that it's not violence against a car to take it for a ride without the owner's permission, and treating women like objects keeps rape from being taken seriously as the violent crime it is when men continue to treat rape as a property crime.

Just c&p this brilliant post from another one of these threads

"Sex work is like an iceberg.

At the tip, there are the people like KatesMott’s and friend, the “empowered” “sex work is work” types, who get to see the ocean, the sunshine, fresh air and the world. Life is seemingly nice at the tip. Unfortunately underneath them, joined by covalent bonds are the first tier: they are the women held just under the surface, constantly just submerged by poverty, drug addiction, never making quite enough money, constantly trying to keep themselves afloat and needing to take a breath every time they break the surface.

And underneath them is the next tier of women: those who are trafficked, beaten, raped, subject to horrors and killed. They are deep underwater, in the freezing depths, so far down that those “empowered” ones at the tip either don’t give one fuck that they’re all part of the same iceberg, or don’t make the connection, because where they are it’s warm and sunny.

It’s not

a refusal to believe that anyone can choose sex work as a valid way of making money

it’s the failure to acknowledge that those who do this are a tiny, small percentage of a huge submerged problem of horror around the world, and the failure to acknowledge that by painting sex work as a glorious opportunity you are ignoring - or deliberately misrepresenting - the reality that the percentage of women who come out of sex work unscathed, financially secure and set up for life is incredibly small.

And by continuing with advocacy for

• There's no other "job" on earth where the worker has to accept someone else's genitals inside his or her body.
• There's no other "job" on earth where the worker can be raped, attacked, or murdered and other people (a minority or otherwise) will say "well, she was a [profession worker], what did she expect?"
• There's no other "job" on earth where pregnancy and STIs are an occupational hazard.

I think the real moral issue is punters. More specifically: the expectation that men should be entitled to have sex no matter how attractive, kind, handsome, repulsive or otherwise they are. And that all these (and more) qualifying criteria don't matter but that there should exist a mechanism that, basically, overrides normal prerequisites of consent.

The major moral issue, individual cases/circumstances aside, would seem to be that there seems to be an expectation from men - as a class - that just so long as they're in a position to cough up a few quid, they should be getting sex. Regardless of whether they're the type that women swoon over or some bloke who noone in their right mind would ever consider sleeping with if money weren't a consideration.

Very good point. Men who wish to orgasm and don't have a competent willing partner can buy someone (probably female) to use as a wank sheath, in addition to using their hands or a sex toy. Women who wish to orgasm and don't have a competent willing partner are stuck with their hands or a sex toy. Male access to prostituted people is an example of male class privilege.

Women who wish to orgasm and don't have a competent willing partner are stuck with their hands or a sex toy

Not strictly true - women have access to male escorts and to pay for it too if they so wanted.

Would you have sex with your boss? Why not? What's the difference between making a PowerPoint presentation for him and having sex with him?

Women don't use prostitutes because women don't want to rape, the will to rape is a male disorder.

In 2009, the Shady Lady Ranch brothel opened for women in Nevada and after two months and less than ten customers (mostly journalists covering the story) Nevada’s first legal male prostitute Markus quit and the brothel went out of business.

Remember that tv series Dateline NBC: To Catch a Predator? Hidden cameras were used to catch adults who contacted fake profiles of children over the Internet for sexual liaisons. In all the years the show ran, with the hundreds of stings they conducted, not one single time did a woman show up with a six pack of Mike's Hard Lemonade and a pack of condoms expecting sex with a minor.

On that note, nice username LemonadeAndDaisyChains

On that note, nice username LemonadeAndDaisyChains

I'd say thanks?
Although you're trying to insinuate nefarious intentions going by your comment in the same sentence? As I dare to disagree.
Biscuit for ya,
I've been here years.
Couldn't be because I chose the name for a lighthearted, reminds me of happy days in the sun and we're all lockdown.
Nope, tinfoil hatters out as per.

*In the same way that rape is not theft (but if you can buy sex then is rape just theft?8

It's no so much theft, as invasion of emotional, psychological and bodily autonomy and integrity. Breaching the body's boundaries does represent a kind of violation....which is also why surgical procedures can be so traumatic, or why an involuntary, or even voluntary piercing can feel so shocking.

This, it's not going to be a popular opinion on here but I'm not comfortable with telling a woman what they should or shouldn't be allowed to do.It's not something I particularly ever want to do, but each to their own

I don't this discussion is about telling women what they should and shouldn't do...so much as commenting on prostitution and the act of selling sex, as a woman.

The telling women what they can do business is interesting.

The fact is we tell all kinds of people what they can do. Including to some extent with their bodies. And also what they ought to do in some cases - some things aren't illegal but we can say with some clarity that they are self destructive or emotionally unhealthy.

We're uncomfortable with telling women what they can do because of a sense that's happened too often when it shouldn't have - but that doesn't really change the basic fact that there are things people are not allowed to do, and things they probably shouldn't do, and it's a good thing for society to tell people about those things. It doesn't necessarily do women ay favours to be hesitant to say that some things are socially destructive, or personally destructive. To use a banal example, it used to be that ladies were not considered proper if they smoked in public, but it doesn't mean we should be hesitant to tell women it's bad for their health when they become more likely smokers than men.

There's also the argument about enthusiastic mutual consent.
For me, consent can't be bought or sold. It should be given freely and enthusiastically (an example for context: a woman begrudgingly agreeing to sex just to keep a man happy is not true consent).
When money is involved, that removes the possibility of contest being truly mutual or freely given.

the will to rape is a male disorder

It’s not exclusively male. Women can and do rape as well.

@Plan

Legally, rape can only be inflicted with a penis. Anything else is assault by penetration.

Only men can perpetrate rape but both women and men can be victims of rape.

Dazed,
Depends on the country how rape is defined legally.
In many countries, rape laws do not require a penis. The U.K. is behind the times by not recognising legally (de jure) the reality (de facto) of female rapists.
You’ll catch up though. Just like you finally figured out in the 1990s that marital rape is real and added that to the laws

Men rape much, much more than women and everyone knows it.

British Crime Survey from 2009-10 and Ministry of Justice data says men were perpetrators in 91% of all violent incidents in England and Wales. Men are responsible for:

81% for domestic violence
86% for assault
89% for criminal damage
94% for wounding
96% for mugging
98% for robbery
97% for dangerous driving offences
94% for motoring offences causing death or bodily harm

98% for sexual offences
99% for child sex offences

The highest percentages of women's offences concern fraud and forgery at 30% (men 70%), and theft and handling stolen goods at 21% (men 79%).

If after reading those statistics your top concern is to tell feminists how very important is to you that they always keep in mind the tiny percentage of women who rape, rest assured your helpful input has been noted.

There's also the argument about enthusiastic mutual consent.
For me, consent can't be bought or sold. It should be given freely and enthusiastically (an example for context: a woman begrudgingly agreeing to sex just to keep a man happy is not true consent).
When money is involved, that removes the possibility of contest being truly mutual or freely given.

Not many things give me the rage, but this really, really does. I am quite prepared to say that just because a person decides they want to do something, it doesn't mean they should be allowed to do it. No, you can't sell yourself into slavery or sell your blood and I don't think you should be allowed to sell sex either.

But I don't know who anyone is that they think that they can tell me, or anyone else, that they have to be enthusiastic about anything, or when and why, assuming I'm in my right mind, I can or can't validly decide to have sex. If I want to unenthusiastically have sex, I bloody well can, for any reason I think is appropriate.

Of all the things I've gritted my teeth about in a relationship from time to time, having sex when I wasn't really in the mood is not anywhere near the most vexing. It comes under listening to Phillip Glass blasted on the stereo, and watching John Wick.

@insideandout3 if you found a crime that was done more by a certain race, would you be able to say (for example) ‘the will to steal is a ‘insert race’ disorder’? I think not...

Also, men are overwhelmingly likely to be the victims of almost all of those crimes also.

Oh, here we go, the Penis Defence Force have been summoned

Then I got angry. What sort of human being spots a young woman in that state and gives her cash (or more drugs) for sex. Who does that? How can they do it? They do it because prostitutes are seen as less than human. That's how.

You may not like this answer, but I think it's the correct one. Some men don't see any women as human. It's just a matter of them opportunistically keeping an eye out for situations in which women and girls are in a position where taking advantage of them is easy. It's not just prostitutes as a specific category those men don't see as human, it's all of us. And the most normalized prostitution is within a society the more it feeds that attitude, which is why it's harmful on a societal level even if you don't care about the people directly involved. Misogyny and the sex industry form a feedback loop.

You have to question the type of person who defends prostitution. Do they even think that at best the punters are willing to potentially rape trafficked and vulnerable women without a second thought.

Women can and do rape as well...

Two threads where we are being told that women are rapists.

Aren't we lucky?

While walking my dog we found a little abandoned encampment around a tent in the woods. The floor around the camp was littered with used needles/drug paraphenalia, used condoms and used sanitary towels. The same woods that it's common to see a young woman on her knees servicing a man.

I don't know of any profession that would require a human to do this.