What is the moral difference between sex work and other forms of work?

[MooFeatures]

Hear me out. I know the two are different, and that and that a person selling their body (indeed, their consent) for sex is morally different to other types of work which they wouldn’t engage in if that financial incentive (coercion?) wasn’t present. I’m not questioning this position... I’d just like to be able to fully articulate why the two are different. All explanations gratefully received

Dido Exponential- what is your interest in promoting prostitution? Apart from one trivial AIBU thread you only post on threads about prostitution I am not promoting prostitution-I am just countering some of the crap arguments put out by abolitionists and their Radfem allies.

My interest was sparked ages ago when absurd claims about the number of trafficking victims were first starting to appear. Back of the envelope calculations showed these figures were implausible-furthermore attempts to find these large numbers of trafficking victims confirmed this.

Then there were the ridiculous claims about the average age of starting prostitution was 13-mathematically impossible-anyone who was a bit numerate could see this.
I then turned to other abolitionist claims and the lack of proper academic research to support such claims. The more I dug into Farley, Raphael, Raymond, jeffreys, Mackinnon , Bindel etc the more crap I found. So when I see crap I call it out.

Well we will have to disagree on whether you are "promoting" prostitution.

I'm still puzzled why one would so enthusiastically post on only 1 subject.

insideandout3 There may be some genuine prostituted posters at exponential's link well first they are not “prostituted” they are prostitutes. To contribute to the SAAFE forums you have to prove you are a sexworker. You should poke around the site a bit to see posts of differing tenor ( see for instance Reasons to be an escort here )

It is often claimed on Mumsnet that prostitutes who contribute to Mumsnet forums who did not describe having a shit time were in fact male fantasists (which is what you are implying)-claims shown to be untrue when Twitter accounts were provided.

There is a spectrum of experiencesin prostitution -you can see that in Mumsnet threads-from the good to dire. Abolitionists like to cite only testimony from “survivors” and present those as typical. It would be more honest to recognise some have ok experiences while others have crap ones.

Dido I'm still puzzled why one would so enthusiastically post on only 1 subject. I would post on gender critical stuff especially the TWAW shit which denies biology but I dont think the Mods would allow it

I would post on gender critical stuff especially the TWAW shit which denies biology but I dont think the Mods would allow it

Oh come off it. I'm not particularly "gender critical" and rarely post on those threads but given the number of such threads clearly posters have no difficulty in posting.

Interesting question about bodily autonomy-how come it is the woman’s right to choose to do with her body as far as having an abortion-but not ok for her to rent it out?

You've completely misframed those things.

Abortion: It's not OK for the State to force a woman to give life support to a foetus, so abortion should be legal.
Prostitution: it's not OK for men to rent women's bodies and put them at risk of STIs and pregnancy, so the buying of sex should be illegal.

It's not about the woman's choosy-choice, it's about whether the rest of the world views her as a full human being or as a wank sheath or as an incubator.

Prostitution is not work because no real job puts the worker at risk of pregnancy.

Prostitution is not work because in no real job do "customers" want service providers to remove PPE and offer extra money for that.

Prostitution is not real work because in no real job do customers deliberately seek service providers out during poor weather in order to secure lower prices. (ibid.)

Athletic guy, super sporty. Firm and muscular. Lives abroad. Unreal huge monster knob. Respectful and quiet. Nice chap. But should I not be paying him

Sorry had to laugh, this is definitely written by a man. Most of them are.
Frankly if they are so good in bed, so respectful and sooo good looking, why would they need to buy sex?

I give a bet that none of the women from Holbeck are on that SAAFE website. To be on such a website, you've got to have the free time to go online and access to a suitable device and have the mental energy to post, which is unlikely if you're being pimped or are addicted to drugs. The women who have the worst experiences of prostitution are the ones we hear from the least, they are the ones most likely to support Nordic Model once exited and TBPH they are the ones I care about because they are the ones getting hurt. The degree-educated belle du jour types with plenty of other options, they can look after themselves.

Unreal huge monster knob.

Pro-tip, most women don't orgasm from vaginal intercourse alone and so the size of his tool doesn't matter that much. A woman is unlikely to have written this.

To contribute to the SAAFE forums you have to prove you are a sexworker

Because everyone on the Internet is who they say they are.

How does one prove on an anonymous internet forum that one is a prostitute? I wasn't aware that prostitutes had unique identifiers issued by their regulatory body in the way say accountants, financial service advisors or solicitors have.

Exponential you read that link on previous. Page. To German brothels

Am like dido.

You give off a bad vibe

Pro-tip, most women don't orgasm from vaginal intercourse alone and so the size of his tool doesn't matter that much. A woman is unlikely to have written this.

In fact one can definitely experience too much of a good thing when it comes to penis size, which again a woman would know.

I think the point you are making is that in “real work” experience (e.g. age) commands a premium and so prostitution is not “real work” because age does not.

This is just one of the many things you have been wrong about on this thread.
I was particularly taken with your assertion that prostituted children are self employed. Troll on, troll.

So, I mentioned being in Germany for two weeks and experiencing and witnessing more sexual harassment on the street in two weeks than I did in the remaining 50 weeks of that year that I spent in the UK? It turns out that women in the vicinity of strip joints are regarded as valid targets for indecent proposals.

Any law or policy that normalises the purchase of sexual services hire of women's bodies causes an increase in the harassment of women by men.

Prostitution and other forms of "sex work" are not work because no real job increases the levels of rape, street harassment, and sexual objectification of women.

If prostitution is work, why is it considered sexual harassment, actionable by HR, if my boss propositions me for sex? He can ask to me to do "any reasonable task" within my training including things that are well outside my usual (skilled technical) role such as taking rubbish bags out and basic cleaning, so why isn't giving him a blowjob a "reasonable task"?

within my training

I meant "within my competence". I don't need training to run a broom around at the end of the work day.

Don’t know what happened to your sense of proportion.

While you might believe that a prostitute harms both herself and society by her choice (which is disputable) it is nothing like the harm that might be caused to the poor or vulnerable by commercial organ transplantation. Get a grip.

As with organ donation and child labour, the nature of the activity and the imbalance in power between client and service provider make it likely that the prostitute will be harmed or abused.

secondly sexworkers are self employed and job centres cannot force someone into self employment.

Your knowledge of employment law, specifically the difference between employed and self employed status, is as sketchy as your knowledge of the sex trade.

merrymouse Your knowledge of employment law, specifically the difference between employed and self-employed status, is as sketchy as your knowledge of the sex trade . So if your knowledge is so superior-show me where it says and under what law claimants can be forced into self employment. You can’t.

TehBewilderness I was particularly taken with your assertion that prostituted children are self employed And where did I say this? I did not-so will you retract? I doubt it. RTFT

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg why is it considered sexual harassment, actionable by HR, if my boss propositions me for sex? He can ask to me to do "any reasonable task" within my competence You answered your own question-it hinges on “reasonable”. If your boss asked you to jump out of the window-which I assume is within your competence-would you do it? If not why not? It is not reasonable and not explicit in your contract.
The prostitute agrees to provide defined (within her boundaries ) defined sexual service for pay. She can withdraw from that contract if the client is smelly, abusive, a twat or other reasons. That is the “contract”
Studies show that in the majority of interactions the prostitute is in control of the interaction (see for instance Kinnell op.cit , also On Our Own Terms: The Working Conditions of Internet-Based Sex Workers in the UK here; Sex work and modes of self-employment in the informal economy: diverse business practices and constraints to effective working here;

I'm still amazed that despite the multiplicity of topics on FWR in particular and MN in general the only subject exponential thinks is worth posting about is "prostitution is a job like any other"

So if your knowledge is so superior-show me where it says and under what law claimants can be forced into self employment. You can’t.

On what basis are you assuming that all prostitutes are self employed?

She can withdraw from that contract if the client is smelly, abusive, a twat or other reasons. That is the “contract”

And what if the client doesn't agree?

merrymouse On what basis are you assuming that all prostitutes are self employed?
Now lets take this slowly-go to my post above-read aloud the titles of the links, especially the link Sex work and modes of self-employment in the informal economy: diverse business practices and constraints to effective working , then open the link, then read the paper-there-it’s not that hard is it? I could show you a ton more but that is probably all you can take in for the moment’

And what if the client doesn't agree? she will terminate the service and ask him to leave. Now you might think this is unlikely-but in the most cases this is what happens.

So why cant sex workers be employed by a company as PAYE? What makes sex work different to all other types of work in that respect?

DidoLamenting the only subject exponential thinks is worth posting about is prostitution is a job like any other .

Well I will admit to being slightly nerdish and obsessive on certain topics, could join a lot of the science threads (I don’t think one on black holes would be interesting) but there is usually someone who says what I think, not many threads on evolution and genetics, could pitch into the anti-vaxers (but they are nutters), no threads here on 18th century music-sometimes thought of taking apart the TWAW trope from the biological point of view-but many posters do it better than I

But it is such fun to pitch into these threads wind you all up and see the same arguments and ignorance being recycled again and again.

And I never said “"prostitution is a job like any other (actually if you have a reference for the first occurrence of the the like any other bit of the phrase I would be interested-see I am nerdy).

What I said is prostitution is a job-a service job-where a service is provided for gain (usually pay), it is obviously not like any other except so far as in it is pay for service.

A vast number of posts on this thread attempt to show how prostitution differs from other jobs-it does differ-I have yet to see one that convinces me it is not a job or work.