What is the moral difference between sex work and other forms of work?

[MooFeatures]

Hear me out. I know the two are different, and that and that a person selling their body (indeed, their consent) for sex is morally different to other types of work which they wouldn’t engage in if that financial incentive (coercion?) wasn’t present. I’m not questioning this position... I’d just like to be able to fully articulate why the two are different. All explanations gratefully received

... you'd tell your mates your wife was a plumber but why you wouldn't want to tell them she'd taken up sucking other men's cocks for a living...

Excellent point. Worth repeating. Done!

Pertella Oh not that trope again about benefits sanction. It seemed to originate in a Telegraph article from 2005 and was shown to be false here.
The answer as to “ if sexwork were work then why shouldn’t the unemployed be forced to do it" is that firstly you cannot force someone to take work that they might regard as immoral and to do so would infringe their rights and secondly sexworkers are self employed and job centres cannot force someone into self employment.
Another prostitute on a Mumsnet thread said (in reponse to the same tired argument) As for comments with regards to the job centre. These actually make me laugh. I remember claiming, and sitting there at one point and being asked what I would like to do. All job searches, cv building etc revolved around what I would like to do. At no point did anyone say right World, there's a couple of positions at the local strip joint, apply or accept sanctions. The work you look for and are matched to is based on your skills etc. You aren't randomly matched to stuff otherwise I would have been sent on worthless interviews outside my experience, skills and qualifications

I am amazed at the number of times this “argument” as to why sexwork is not work is regurgitated through threads on Mumsnet. You might regard it as imoral or distasteful but that does not say it is not work

Antibles. The OP’s point is that she “knows” there is a difference between sexwork and other work and that the difference she thinks is that consent is bought. But she is not really sure, so she wants help on articulating why sex work is different.

As I pointed out upthread-no one thinks you are buying a plumbers consent-you are buying a service-why all the talk about buying consent with prostitutes?

It can only be because it is S-E-X. and that sex without consent is rape and some believe that the prostitute’s consent is bought so is not freely or enthusiastic so it is coerced and so prostitution is rape. As one prostitute on a Mumsnet thread said What a load of f***g bollocks!
Those prostitutes who have actually been raped do know the difference between rape and prostitute sex.

I think probably the OP thinks prostitution is a bit “Yuk” but can’t quite articulate why she thinks that.

Namenic and merrymouse you both reiterate the point commonly made on Mumsnet in these discussions that if someone “chooses” to do something that is harmful to them and/or society then that choice should controlled. You then give examples of organ selling and surrogacy.

Don’t know what happened to your sense of proportion.

While you might believe that a prostitute harms both herself and society by her choice (which is disputable) it is nothing like the harm that might be caused to the poor or vulnerable by commercial organ transplantation. Get a grip.

Interesting question about bodily autonomy-how come it is the woman’s right to choose to do with her body as far as having an abortion-but not ok for her to rent it out?

Antibles.Sorry I missed out the second part of your question.
You say Moral difference between different kinds of work. Reason why you'd tell your mates your wife was a plumber but why you wouldn't want to tell them she'd taken up sucking other men's cocks for a living

Yeah differnt kinds of work-but still work none-the-less

I am always surprised by reading prostitute threads on Mumsnet and also on SAAFE how many prostitutes are partnered-and generally know what their partner does for a living.

Now I am sure you will claim they are pimps-while a few may be the others just seem like ordinary couples-and the partner accepts that prostitution sex is “just a job”.

Might be hard to believe-but there it is

I guess why they don’t mention the partners work is largely to do with the stigma surrounding prostitution. Also they do know that others have different moral views than their own. I doubt many swinging couple broadcast their hobby to their straight mates.

Have you tried it yourself?

TehBewilderness The most glaring indication that prostitution is not remotely like other forms of work is that the more experienced the prostituted woman or girl is the lower her value and the less experienced a prostituted woman or girl is the higher her value to the pimps and punters

Well maybe prostitution is not remotely like other forms of work but it is work none-the-less

I think the point you are making is that in “real work” experience (e.g. age) commands a premium and so prostitution is not “real work” because age does not.

Well firstly there are many real jobs (especially non-professional jobs) where experience does not really command a premium (cleaning might be an example)

But you are wrong that necessarily the youngest are the most desirable and command the highest fees. You can see this in threads on SAAFE which show that prostitutes starting in their 50’s get work as some punters prefer people closer to their own age. So threads How old were you when you started escorting? here and How long have you been working? here are informative

So doubly wrong

Now I am sure you will claim they are pimps

Yes they are. And if they benefit from a penny of the money the punters pay UK criminal law says they are too. Quite rightly.

Well firstly there are many real jobs (especially non-professional jobs) where experience does not really command a premium (cleaning might be an example)

The wage being paid doesn't decrease.

The work you look for and are matched to is based on your skills etc. You aren't randomly matched to stuff otherwise I would have been sent on worthless interviews outside my experience, skills and qualifications

As a teenager/ young woman I was extremely pretty, keen on no commitment sex and very , very clever. What if my "skills" had been only the pretty face and the casual attitude to sex?

Exponential an advanced search on your username shows that apart from one AIBU thread started by you about , what I have to say seemed, an extremely trivial point, the only subject you seem to be interested in is promoting prostitution.

Why is that?

I am sorry i haven't read the full thread yet. Its the morality of the buyer that's in question, not the prostitute imo. The person selling their body is in a position of need, for the buyer it's merely a want. What sort of person has sex with someone they know doesn't want it?

The wage being paid doesn't decrease.

Nor is there a premium paid the very first time the person does the "job".

(Perhaps this doesn't happen in the UK. In other countries it most definitely does.)

@exponential - Could you see that SOME people may avoid prostitution BECAUSE Of restrictions? Prostitution may be enjoyable for SOME but SOME may be actively harmed by it - it is not just the sex workers themselves. You could argue that it affects punters, their families and partners. Maybe it give punters less incentive to develop a relationship to engage in consensual sex?

We have restrictions on gambling, alcohol, organ donation, surrogacy, child labour, working hours, lockdown - why not prostitution? Some people are restricted by these rules - ie they may do a rational calculation and actively decide that they enjoy gambling with high stakes more than they are harmed by losing. However society thinks that restrictions will help more people overall.

I think it’s silly to put things in 2 big categories: organ donation on one side (altruistic donation is allowed) and prostitution on another. There are finely balanced points on both sides and different societies will make different decisions.

Dervel When it comes to the enforcement of contracts if you pay a prostitute but they fail to provide any sex an attempt to legally enforce the contract would result in a rape
I think you accidentally inserted legally-I believe what you mean is that contracts to provide sexual services are not legally enforceable. The conclusion you draw is prostitution is not like other work-and I would agree-but that does not mean it is not work

Ereshkigalangcleg When men have the green light to buy women, they treat all women like shit.
Where is this green light? Do you mean where prostitution is legalized or decriminalized-and where is your evidence?

For the most part prostitutes report that men treat them with respect (see for instance Kinnell’s Research where a number of prostitutes were asked to record their interactions with up their next 50 clients (described in Why Feminists Should Rethink on Sex Workers ’ Rights here.see also this thread on SAAFE Describe your last booking here.

This thread with over 2000 contributions shows that clients are not all nasty misogynists. Some may be twats or unhygenic and some unpleasant and some aggressive but by and large they are a cross section of men. This very much confirms the results of the Mumsnet threads and the Qualitative work of the BTG group here

I have seen nothing in all the contributions that tells me sexwork (actually I prefer the term prostitution as it is more precise) is not work-it is a service provided for money-just like other work. It may be unpleasant to some, some may think it is immoral-but it is work none-the-less

Dido Now I am sure you will claim they are pimps Yes they are. And if they benefit from a penny of the money the punters pay UK criminal law says they are too.

Sorry Dido you are wrong if you check Controlling Prostitution for Gain: Section 53 Sexual Offences Act 2003 you will see pimping involves control. Otherwise a prostitutes adult children could be done for pimping. So providing the husband does not control his wife’s prostitution it is not pimping.

The wage being paid doesn't decrease Nor does it with age in prostitution-check the fees advertised on platforms where prostitutes advertise.

the only subject you seem to be interested in is promoting prostitution.Why is that? Well I could say I love baiting radfems-but I agree with them on gender issues.

I am just fed up with the same arguments being trotted out about “Why sexwork is not work” and the huge ignorance displayed in Mumsnet posts and the absence of evidence to back views.
And I agree with Kinnell op.cit

Abolitionist feminism alleges that no woman chooses to sell sex. This dictum applies even where the woman herself believes she is making a free choice to sell sexual services and even where no physical violence or external coercion takes place.
I believe it is completely incompatible with the human right to autonomy, and with what I understand by feminism, to dismiss or override any woman’s choices or assessment of her own best interests. To denigrate women’s choices as self-delusional or based on “false consciousness” is not feminism but fascism. I find this dismissal of women’s choices especially offensive when those doing the dismissing are privileged, university-based westerners and the women whose choices they dismiss are from poor communities bearing the brunt of global economic and social inequalities………..I think the question of whether sex work is intrinsically or essentially degrading is irrelevant, since to make that judgement involves a number of beliefs about the place of sexual activity in human relationships, which it is unlikely all societies will ever agree on, never mind all individuals

She puts it better than I ever could

Exponential- what is your interest in promoting prostitution? Apart from one trivial AIBU thread you only post on threads about prostitution.

''The “German Model”, 17 years after the liberalization of prostitution''

''Far from protecting the women, “the German model“ has become “hell on earth“ for them. I use this strong comparison on purpose, because the situation in Germany has become extremely serious.''

www.trauma-and-prostitution.eu/en/2018/06/19/the-german-model-17-years-after-the-legalization-of-prostitution/

So sex work is work, except for all the ways it is treated differently to other forms of work. Right...

Sex work is not just work; the reality of it is that women are harmed, sex trafficking of women and children increases whether it is legal or not, and its ridiculous to demand feminists to support it.

Thanks theinbretia

That’s a a read that is awful to read. How did Germany get to that state where women are like just nobodies to be used by men if they have a small amount of money

Prostitution as a system uses this traumatisation for its own ends and profit. Under no circumstances can prostitution be defined as “work“ or “a service“. The erogenous and reproductive body parts of women are too sensitive to be objectified for the use as work tools. Prostitution can only be practised in a state of pathological dissociation.

Well I could say I love baiting radfems-but I agree with them on gender issues

For the third time why is the promotion of prostitution the only subject you think is worth posting about?

Should have said that last para is from the ariticle linked to above

Prostitution can only be practised in a state of pathological dissociation.

Which it's advocates will then describe as empowerment.

There may be some genuine prostituted posters at exponential's link, but judging from the first three pages they laughingly read like punter fantasy fulfillment on the subject of "describe your last booking". The responses are curiously centered on how very physically attractive the punters are while they're being generous gentlemen:

"He's a lovely person, pretty good looking and gentle, always put the envelope down before I need to ask, always brings flowers, champagne and sometimes an extra gift."

"My last booking was with a guy who was excellent in bed! I could have kissed him, and I did! He was very nice and got on well."

"My last booking was with this gorgeous bloke in his 40s who was so good in bed I kept thinking "No! This can't be happening! Whuut?" Also when we were just chatting we got to talking about his son and my nephew and nice things like that. Just a really lovely person, good conversation and easy on the eyes."

"My last one was amazing. It's a nice older man I've been seeing for a few months. He's had a few nasty health problems and I suspect depression. He also has a severe porn addiction and had not had Sex for 10 years. For the last few months we've struggled with erectile dysfunction and inability to cum. And this time, both problems were overcome! It was a moment of triumph, I was so happy for him."

"I guess I'm lucky that my last booking was immense fun and I'm still smiling about it. So a new client called up and requested something a little more unusual. Sure... I tell him I'm happy to oblige. Was something I was really inexperienced at so was quite nervous but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Doubt it'll be a booking I'll forget in a while."

"My last appointment last night was with a gent who had been punting since the 80's. We really enjoyed ourselves and I heard some great tales about his punting past. Lovely bloke."

"I've had a few weeks off over Christmas but my last client was so handsome, was a nice treat for myself before Christmas, he was amazing in bed and was wearing my favourite aftershave too."

"arrrhhhh I just had a hottie of a client, too enthusiastic on my part perhaps. Already smitten and already in the phone as 'yep, you want to see him again'. All smiles."

""He's great in bed and quite good looking but young.
I enjoyed it a lot but I don't know what came over me but I went to kiss him 'passionately' like I meant it..then I realised and moved away."

"Tonight I had a client who was probably the handsomest man I've ever touched. The guy was smokin'! Tall, dark, handsome, distinguished... great body, beautiful eyes, perfect white teeth. And, of course, a very nice man."

"Can't get my last booking out of my head damn....oddly Fridays have been ending with a run of good looking bankers in their 30s. Can't get this one guy out of my head"

"Last booking was with a new client, a lovely guy who bought me a box of chocolates. He managed to cum 3 times in an hour so it was quite intense. Said he hadn't had sex for 3 mths although not sure if I believed that. Might have been on V but who cares as he was really nice company. We ran over quite a bit but I didn't mind as I didn't have another booking and was actually enjoying myself."

"Last booking was with a lovely gentlemen-very friendly, great conversationalist (hate the ones that hardly if ever speak, makes it so uncomfortable!) polite, clean and very respectful."

"He was very interested in what got ME turned on instead of just thinking about himself, and used his Hitachi wand on me for a looong time.. definitely going to have to get one of those!!"

"My last booking was with a 26 year old cute fire fighter. Had great sex with him ;D And I got some advice on fire safety tips in my apartment!"

"Athletic guy, super sporty. Firm and muscular. Lives abroad. Unreal, huge monster knob. Respectful and quiet. Nice chap. But should I not be paying him?"