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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Liz Truss reveals ‘shocking’ plan to remove healthcare for trans youth, slammed as an ‘extraordinary’ attack on equality - the backlash begins

159 replies

stumbledin · 23/04/2020 17:09

Predictably trans activists and their media allies have started misrepresenting what Liz Truss said.

"" ... Worryingly, only one of the three principles set out by Truss actually relates to GRA reform.

The other two – the protection of single-sex spaces for women and access to healthcare for transgender youth – are talking points often repeated by those opposed to trans rights in any form. ... "

(ie protecting women's rights is anti trans)

" ... “It would be an extraordinary move for the minister for women and equalities to support the introduction of a new form of inequality into British medical practice, by effectively treating transgender teenagers as less capable than their cisgender peers.

“We believe that transgender young people should have the same right to make important personal decisions as non-trans people.

“Furthermore, we must question why Ms Truss is making a statement about clinical pathways while answering a question on the Gender Recognition Act, which has no bearing on medical care.” ... "

(This is pink news so not surprising that they would take this tone!)

Meanwhile in the Independent:

" ... LGBT rights group Stonewall demanded talks with the minister to establish what decisions she had in mind and to ensure that young people continue to be offered appropriate support. ... "

" ... We’d welcome an opportunity to discuss this with the minister, as it’s crucial all young people who are questioning their gender identity are able to access high-quality, timely support. Every trans young person should be given the care they need, in an informed and supportive manner, so they’re able to lead a happy, healthy life.” ... "

As far as I know no women's groups or services have made any statement, eg re confirmation that single sex service provision is guaranteed under the EA.

Pink News: www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/23/liz-truss-trans-rights-gender-recognition-act-reform-healthcare-puberty-blockers-backlash/

Independent: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lgbt-gender-government-liz-truss-transgender-rights-consultation-a9478901.html

OP posts:
witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 10:17

Thanks GCGayDad

Trans-ableism is wanting to amputate a healthy limb(s):
www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/1999/obsession_script.shtml

Trans-ageism is what a person in the Netherlands tried to do (he felt a couple of decades younger):
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46133262

Both are not really considered “acceptable” by the medical community or society, yet arguably touch on similar themes of “I sincerely identify this way.”

OldCrone · 24/04/2020 10:18

This man took his case to court to argue that he should be able to legally change his age.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46425774

Here he is explaining to Jane Fae how being transage is just like being transgender.

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 10:22

I remember reading about someone who wanted to have a leg amputated so much. It was sad and worrying at the same time.

Also the white man who decided that he was actually a Thai woman. That was just bonkers.

I also wandered into a cul de sac on twitter yesterday of men who wanted to become ‘Muslim wives’ and sad a newspaper report of one who did that and got married (as a second wife) to someone they met online (who had no idea until the wedding day). They were most put out because their local mosque wouldn’t let them into the women’s section. It was an old newspaper report so I did wonder how things planned out.

GCGayDad · 24/04/2020 10:24

Thanks @witchesaremysisters

I guess another - less extreme -version of “trans-ableism” - would be claiming to identify as disabled without actually being so and then getting one of those parking passes and using it to deprive a genuinely disabled person of their parking space...

witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 10:24

Absolutely, lamahaha
And I would argue that unlike the other examples, it’s possible to have a recollection of what it was actually like to be 10 years younger (you have the lived experience of being a teenager, for example), so in some ways it’s the most plausible one of the lot!

Datun · 24/04/2020 10:35

OldCrone

That clip is hilarious, every time. Fae has nothing, absolutely nothing. Everything Fae says applies to themself. And Fae is reduced to the highly transphobic assertion that trans is a medical condition. (And even then the guy subsequently mentions Peter Pan syndrome.)

Blistering and at one point, actually struggles to speak. Because, no words!

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 10:36

If transgender is a thing, then transage, transabled, transrace and transspecies are a thing. Either you stuff into law that someone's subjective inner sense of self and expression is Real and they must be treated in all ways as if they had that objectively ascertainable aspect, plus be provided with all the same resources that those with objectively ascertainable aspects have - or you put down boundaries that you can express yourself however you like but there are lines you cannot cross in order to protect the rights and needs of others.

If you can use female single sex spaces by choice, and funded female only provision by choice, then by natural extension you should be able to access disability benefits and a carer by choice, or attend your local preschool by choice. It isn't logical or arguable that one aspect of identity should be treated as fact but others not.

Fetish will play an inevitable role in all the above with consideration having to be raised about to what extent someone should be able to involve non consenting others in their sexual expression; the impact on those who cannot identify out of the group being identified into will always be considerable; there will be issues about how society funds resources for those with objective need when those resources and those funds are now being spread over those who have the need and those who identify as having that need.

I pointed this out to my MP several years ago. This way madness lies.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 24/04/2020 10:52

This has fuck all to do with Gillick or reproductive rights. What transactivists are doing is sleight-of-hand trickery, coopting other struggles to mask the reality of their position.

Exactly - transwomen and immigrants, transwomen and women of colour, transwomen and girls who need abortions now. Always have to co-opt someone else's struggle.

I read on here ages ago the point with abortion is it is the action that keeps things the same - it's the choice with the small impact vs. pregnancy which is the choice with the big impact.

Puberty blockers is the exact opposite way around. They are in no way comparable.

GCGayDad · 24/04/2020 11:14

Superb points @Michelleoftheresistance

stillathing · 24/04/2020 11:25

I was fascinated by the Rachel Dolezal case when it was publicised. It was before I knew about trans rights activism and I was saying "TWAW" without pausing to think about what it meant.

After I heard the whole story I could see how, psychologically, Dolezal had got herself into that situation. The abusive upbringing, and the only meaningful relationships in her life being with her black siblings.

I felt huge sympathy for her but at no point did I believe that her feelings about herself and her unfortunate life circumstances added up to make her genuinely a black person. Or to make it imperative that others colluded in the pretence that she was a black person. Or that she somehow deserved things that had been set aside for black people as a way to redress structural racism.

MrsSnippyPants · 24/04/2020 11:28

stumbledin you said:

"Unfortunatley we know that the public via the beatification of Mermaids have also accepted the trans narrative!
We might all hope they do but there is no evidence of that.
And as I said up thread no evidence of women's groups / women's rights activists countering the trans publicity and / or they have and papers are refusing to publish."

I disputed that and continue to do so.

And "where were you?"

Seriously? You have no idea how long I have been involved in the fight for women's rights nor what I do and have done. So get off your high horse and stop assuming other women are not working damned hard to protect their rights and their children.

Aesopfable · 24/04/2020 11:29

I thought a lot of transwomen were meant be trans age too - being ‘girls’ instead of fifty-something year old men, or more specifically teenage girls?

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 11:37

No one seems to want to be a saggy baggy middle aged grey haired woman. Funny that.

witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 11:37

This way madness lies.
Indeed.
Great post.

Kit19 · 24/04/2020 11:57

yep Lordfrontpaw it grinds my gears to see the uni age mtf transwomen who essentially just grow their hair and wear make up having all my spaces thrown open to them when I would bet money that in a few years time they'll all be back to being called Dan or Simon again, working as an accountant and laughing about that crazy time when they were a womans officer at uni

witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 12:26

I guess another - less extreme -version of “trans-ableism” - would be claiming to identify as disabled without actually being so and then getting one of those parking passes and using it to deprive a genuinely disabled person of their parking space...

Very much, yes. But it would go beyond that if we were to really run with this analogy.

Very sorry to any people with disabilities, particularly limb issues. This is an analogy so it’s always crude. Don’t mean to cause offence, but it might be hurtful and if so I apologise.

...

So, I’m “transableism”, here re-named “trans-disabled” to mean persons who have no physical disability and four normally functioning limbs, but “identify as amputees” on the inside.

Imagine doctors said:
Sure, people who have this dysphoria need to be treated with amputations because we all have a something called a “limb identity.” Theirs is mismatched.

There is no scientific basis for this. No test. No objective evidence. It’s physical intervention for a state of mind.

We could see then that the early doctors might ask for some hoops to be jumped through to show commitment, some ring-fencing. Perhaps a “real-life test” of a year - where the person doesn’t use the limb in question, or goes around in a wheelchair, uses accessible toilets, tells everyone that limb is missing, changes some official documents, etc.

They’ve not asked actual disabled people about this, mind you.

Nobody ever asks them anything in this analogy.

Then medics start doing some amputations. It’s all a bit quiet and niche. Goes on for many years. Then the trans-disabled having had their operations start taking over disability rights movements and saying they’re uniquely oppressed even by people born disabled because trans-disabled people had to “prove” that they “should” have been born without a limb, unlike the privileged cis-disabled people.

Then they start saying there needs to be some kind of legal documentation so that no distinction can be made between those who voluntarily caused their disability and those who had no choice.

Then there’s a question of why medics are even “gatekeeping” these “identities” with operations. Activists decide that actually no surgery is required, self-declaration must be enough. There’s numerous think-pieces about how words can mean anything, material bodies aren’t “real” anyways and that someone who is running marathons can validly identify as wheelchair-bound internally and use the disabled toilets.

An award for visibly disabled people in business goes to someone who cycles to work, bounding up the stairs half the days, but “needs” full assistance with activities of daily living for the others as they identify as limbless on those days. Because they’re disability-fluid.

Then there’s a campaignl for children to be able to identify as disabled. A Dutch team comes up with a way to “pause” limb development by using a drug for cancer patients, which will keep that limb small. We’re told not to worry because the actual amputation won’t happen until they’re 18. If children “come out” as trans-disabled at school, their parents might not get told, and if they argue that in fact the child has four healthy limbs, Social Services might get called.

The media runs a glorified story of a child whose mother took them abroad for a limb amputation, painting this as a brave story. A charity called Lizards (as they famously lose their tails) campaigns for greater trans-disabled medical treatments for under-18s and partners with a leading international coffee chain.

When disabled people get pissed off about this they get called trans-exclusionary and told to die in a fire. The trans-disability activists start harassing anyone who questions them, sending death threats and setting off smoke bombs.

And finally, when a politician quietly might clear their throat to mention that material reality still matters... a tiny bit... and maybe children shouldn’t make irreversible decisions.... then we get told this is rolling back equality and maybe a bit like being anti-abortion.

toriap2 · 24/04/2020 12:51

So are they claiming that this is the same as not allowing an 11 or 12 year old to become pregnant? What I have never understood is, the age of consent Is 16, the age of drinking is 18 so are they proposing that a child can Legally consent to treatment which will change their bodies for ever but not have sex or drink legally? Or is the next step to say If 11 year old children can know their own minds on gender treatment they are capable of knowing their own minds on having sexual relationships?

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 13:06

@Kit19 so do they stay in a permanent twilight world of an early 20-something? Like Highlander - never ageing...

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 13:25

toriap you've nailed a lot of it. There are certainly those pushing this agenda in the public view who also are pushing for changes to laws around consent. Which oddly enough also always are for the benefits and freedoms of adults, while phrased as being a 'right' for the child.

Society doesn't argue that an anorexic child should be provided with medical help to get thinner because the child knows best and it's their right - the belief is that a child has a right to adult protection and care whether or not the child at the time agrees, because children don't make good decisions for themselves and require parents and caring adults to do this. Particularly in the realm of serious and permanent life changing decisions that may cause them huge amounts of life disruption and distress in twenty years time.

There is obviously, in any sane mind, a lot of policy and practice around working with a child and listening to the voice of the child and all the rest of it as good practice, alongside current practice of adults making the final decisions informed by the child's opinions but not directed by them. And policy that the child's best interests are paramount.

In this case, society is also learning a hard lesson about not letting a highly vocal political lobby's best interests get accidentally entangled with those of a child.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 13:31

*because children don't make good decisions for themselves and require parents and caring adults to do this.

And would add: particularly when in the grip of severe distress around body dysmorphia and any comorbid conditions which statistically are quite likely, which may include obsessional thinking and other cognitive and emotional distortions. Children in these situations are extremely vulnerable; serious consideration has to be given to with what real clarity a child can put aside their current feelings and desires to look with objectivity at the long term costs. 'Old' and ageism is something that comes up so much in this movement: twenty years from now is a different planet to the average 14 year old.

Detransitioners are also making clear the enormous social pressures and compulsions that come from the online world towards any child who has involved themselves in the communities. They are strongly encouraged to action and to believe certain things in the narrative, and not to trust adults, particularly their loved adults. This narrative actively ruptures attachments at a time when a child most needs them, and encourages them to view any other opinion but a gallop towards drastic treatment as the voice of the enemy.

How the hell can a child make a considered judgement in these circumstances?

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 13:34

I don't always see the children seemingly making the decisions. I see gurning cheerleading mums (for it is usually the mums) driving the bus.

FernPotts · 24/04/2020 13:58

It’s not always the mothers. For the youngster we know, it was absolutely the father - who paid privately for surgery for his just-18 year old, as the NHS refused it.

I am so angry with him I barely want to talk to him. At least the current lockdown makes that pretty easy.

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 14:02

Nooooooo - oh my god. The ones I have seen, the dads have been wither complete homophobes and out of the picture or absolutely against it. Apart from that Stereophonics (?) member.

ScapaFlo · 24/04/2020 14:03

Gosh that trans person really didn't like that Dutch man! The guff about finding it harmful and offensive - welcome to our world. Perhaps the penny has dropped. Oh wait...

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 14:07

So un-self aware. It would be funny if it wasn't so infuriating. Its like debating with Vikki Pollard.

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