Covid-19 and purity spirals

[DreadPirateLuna]

Covid-19 is a very serious illness which threatens our most vulnerable and risks overwhelming the NHS. We should all do what we can to flatten the curve and save lives. People whose behaviour risks lives (e.g. urban residents traveling out to holiday homes in rural communities) should face criticism and sanctions.

However, I can't help feeling that some of the outrage at some behaviours is less about reducing the spread and more about getting caught in a "purity spiral".

Take all the outrage about people in parks. Fresh air and sunshine is good for physical and mental health, it improves the immune system which is particularly important during an epidemic! Many urban residents have no other source of open space except the local park. The ability to get outside can be lifesaving for victims of DV. Risks of contracting disease are very low if you keep your distance from others outside your household.

Yet I've seen photos of walkers and family groups in parks, keeping far away from others, but accused of selfishness and killing the elderly and disrespecting the NHS. Parks in London have been closed, meaning more congestion of other areas and residents confined to homes, which is damaging for reasons outlined above.

And it's usually (though not exclusively) women and esp mothers who get blamed. Those selfish Karens and their broods.

A more sensible solution would be to allow restricted access to the parks. Maybe allow only locals in nearby flats without gardens. But it seems we're not doing sensible these days.

It's not something you can control, Hooves and you need to accept that. Most people aren't going out just to buy chocolate alone. There will be some who do. There will be some who couldn't get what they needed and are already there at the shop, or have gone to top up a key meter. And there are most people, who pick it up as part of a normal food shop.

Yep and there are some who are going out running whilst symptomatic but apparently it was ok because she held her breath as she ran past anyone.

But yep. God forbid we criticise anyone, right? We all should do exactly what we please shouldn't we?

I think there are some people who will never follow any rules. I put that woman videoed on the bench arguing with the police in that category.
But I also think the very mixed messages from government have contributed to some not following the rules. They still think we need to go for herd immunity and don't realise how widely criticised this has been by the scientific community. If you give out mixed messages, people are less likely to follow the rules.

I cant imagine you have much time for real life Hooves. You spend all your time finding out transgressions from your informers and then haranguing posters on here.

You were clearly gleefully with self vindication to find out that a poster sees her granddaughter.

So shall we all follow whatever interpretation of the rules that we fancy then? After all, there should be no penalty or criticism for those who do break or flout the rules right? So why should any of us follow them? Why not all do whatever makes our own lives better and easier? Why be concerned about anyone else?

This is good www.redpepper.org.uk/the-politics-of-covid-19-busy-parks-and-public-blame/

@Ereshkigalangcleg I know people who work in smaller shops who say they re getting a lot of people in to buy one can of coke or one chocolate bar. I think there is a real issue there. But I also think there are a lot of people still not taking this seriously and parroting the earlier government message that all those who have died would have died in the next few months anyway. If you believe that, then yes there is zero issue with going to the local chop for one can of coke.

I also think there has not been enough explanation of viral load. That is another reason why mixing households is so dangerous, because the more people mixing, the greater likelihood if one catches corona that someone in the the group mixing will die or be seriously ill.

I cant imagine you have much time for real life Hooves.

What "real life" do you think I have right now? Hour after hour, day after day of sitting here looking at four walls. Yep, I have so much else to be doing.

Meanwhile, I can read on here about people meeting up with grandchildren, others going running whilst I'll, others going out to the shop multiple times a week, others going out multiple times a day to exercise, others driving miles to go to a beach, others cycling fifty miles a day - why shouldn't I criticise every one of those actions?

It is you who is going the interpretation with your prohibition list etc

You were flinging about accusations wildly yesterday even though most of the posters challenging your interpretation are well within guidelines. We just don't go goose stepping around the boards looking for transgressions. And put the blame for most if this shit where it deserves.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I agree with you and I understand your anger. But I also think it is because of the governments mixed messages that most people are doing this.

We are going to be the worst affected country in Europe. Lots more people are going to die needlessly. People like me have been pointing out the seriousness of this for about 2 months now and being told we are scaremongering, and now that we want a stasi state. We just don't want more people to die. But honestly, I think it is too late.

Those who have died up till now will have largely caught it before lock down. The next tranche will be those living in households with people who caught it before lock down plus key workers. I am not convinced we are at the peak yet.

But I also think there are a lot of people still not taking this seriously and parroting the earlier government message that all those who have died would have died in the next few months anyway. If you believe that, then yes there is zero issue with going to the local chop for one can of coke.

Yes I do actually agree with this point, and as we've seen on other threads it goes with a feeling of resentment that the country has been put on hold for a reason that some people don't consider adequate.

I do however from my own experience of family and friends think most people are trying to follow the guidelines as best they can.

hooves

Some people really are that selfish, and that unconcerned for unlikely c good. They are the children of Thatcher, (even if they say they abhor right wing politics) for their actions show they see no such thing as society. They fault-find with advice that is perfectly clear to the vast majority, and keep picking away with what the as imperfections.

They are incapable of seeing the common benefit, of realising the need to protect the weakest, or of foregoing anything without compulsion. The idea that we're all in this together is rejected by them because they think 'together' has to mean 'expienced identically' rather than the more socially cohesive 'everyone acts' idea.

Unfortunately, there are enough of them about to risk the intended benefits of lockdown.

It will certainly not be doing you any good. Can I suggest a nice book? Audible is really great, and you can listen while you do other things, like housework as you said you cant garden

I'm off to do some work.

I see in general women trying to follow the guidelines more than men. But I have seen a few women not taking it seriously. Like one who posted on face book inviting everyone to a lock down party until she got lots and lots of critical comments. She openly says she thinks it is all a major over reaction and does not understand the fuss.

Dances

It is not the government's fault if people ignore what they have been told.

The government are at fault for many things - chronic under funding of the NHS, lack of PPE, lack of preparedness for a pandemic, but the fact remains that no matter how prepared the health service was people will die. People will die despite early ITU care with every intervention possible. Those people arent dying because of a shortage of ventilators. They are dying because they couldn't be saved.

The more people who go out and spread it the more people will die. Not because of failures by government but simply because there is no treatment from this and many people will die from it because every intervention has been done and there is nothing more that can be done.

Yes, government has made huge mistakes and they aren't being held accountable for them. Health care workers, and their patients, are being put at unacceptable risk due to lack of PPE, which will no doubt no lead to hospital acquired infection spreading and killing patients but that's why it's even more important to not risk spreading it through the community.

RoseAndRose

I agree with every word. That is the sad truth.

You were clearly gleefully with self vindication to find out that a poster sees her granddaughter

Even the phrase "seeing her granddaughter" assumes it is a selfish act of someone who can't live without seeing her family. That's not my circumstance at all......me and my husband have daily responsibility for our granddaughter, and in fact she has stayed with us for months on end - because of our particular family circumstances. We pick her up from school, when she's at school...take her swimming and so on.

My granddaughter is ver much part of our household. She doesn't live 100 miles away.

I'm still not feeling irresponsible....no matter how much others try to induce guilt ( i know that is not what you are doing). I take my family responsibilities seriously- and as a family we don't mix with others.

My granddaughter only has one set of grandparents - that's us - and no siblings.

Your grand daughter isn't part of your household though, no matter how much you see her as being. You don't live in the same household and therefore aren't part of the same household.

If one of you catches corona, because of viral load and the increased number of people, it makes it more dangerous for others.
That is why those in large households are more at risk.

So where do you put the cut off? 2 miles? 10 miles? The government is clear the cut off is different houses; it doesn’t matter if they are only 50 yards apart. It doesn’t matter if you used to see your granddaughter daily or that your daughter once upon a time lived with you. It is irrelevant that you used to take her swimming. There are no stipulations about family size or number of grandparents in the legislation or that the guidelines only apply if you have siblings.

You might not feel irresponsible but you clearly are. If you don’t get Covid, or if you do and receive treatment, it is because you are riding on the backs of people who are being responsible and are not mixing households or going for exercise several times a day, or who go shopping the minimum amount they can.

You might not feel irresponsible but you clearly are

No I'm not! You don't know my family circumstances other what you have been told on here. I shoulder a lot of responsibility, and that includes looking after our granddaughter.We all have to balance our duties and obligations.

If one of you catches corona, because of viral load and the increased number of people

If anyone catches it, it is likely to be me...since I'm the one that does the shopping. I'm as likely to catch it as most other people who frequent shops. Nobody else in the household goes to the shops ( apart from my daughter who goes once a week where she shops for an elderly neighbour), or to work outside of the home..nor do they see friends or colleagues.

Can you explain how you think I'm more of a risk than you, or your family? Where is this heavy 'viral load' coming from in my circumstance?

It sounds like Justathought is possible closer to the situation of children travelling between their parents who share care - which is permitted. Obviously she doesn't want to disclose her exact personal circumstances but I have known a couple of families like this; in some cases an informal family agreement, in others an agreement reached with social services.

As far as I understand it, viral load is thought to be relevant where more than one person in a household catches it as it's very difficult for most people to effectively self isolate from the people they live with, especially when there is a care situation involved such as children or elderly parents. And the greater the viral load, the harder it is for even a healthy immune system to fight it. Just as it's relevant when health and care workers, bus drivers etc are exposed multiple times. It applies to everyone who has multiple exposures to the virus.

Justhadathought

Because it is about reducing unnecessary spread.

So if you catch it, you might give it to your husband, plus any people you interact with at the shop.

However, if you get it and are mixing with your DD and gd you've now given it to your dh, DD, gd, plus anyone you come into contact, plus anyone that your DD comes into contact with too so maybe her elderly neighbour, the shop workers she interacts with, the people she works with.

It's about putting in fire breaks. The spread between your home and your DDS home, plus any associated further spread need not happen.

That's the issue.