Covid-19 and purity spirals

[DreadPirateLuna]

Covid-19 is a very serious illness which threatens our most vulnerable and risks overwhelming the NHS. We should all do what we can to flatten the curve and save lives. People whose behaviour risks lives (e.g. urban residents traveling out to holiday homes in rural communities) should face criticism and sanctions.

However, I can't help feeling that some of the outrage at some behaviours is less about reducing the spread and more about getting caught in a "purity spiral".

Take all the outrage about people in parks. Fresh air and sunshine is good for physical and mental health, it improves the immune system which is particularly important during an epidemic! Many urban residents have no other source of open space except the local park. The ability to get outside can be lifesaving for victims of DV. Risks of contracting disease are very low if you keep your distance from others outside your household.

Yet I've seen photos of walkers and family groups in parks, keeping far away from others, but accused of selfishness and killing the elderly and disrespecting the NHS. Parks in London have been closed, meaning more congestion of other areas and residents confined to homes, which is damaging for reasons outlined above.

And it's usually (though not exclusively) women and esp mothers who get blamed. Those selfish Karens and their broods.

A more sensible solution would be to allow restricted access to the parks. Maybe allow only locals in nearby flats without gardens. But it seems we're not doing sensible these days.

I’m beginning to think it’s not zebra hooves but cloven

Absolutely mrsfrumble

Like the nurse who got a snotty note on her car saying she was part of the problem Just because she was going to work in her civvies

Mrsfrumble

That's the problem though - people interpreting the rules to suit themselves.

They are very clear - leave home as little as possible, and minimise the time you are out, even when out for a permitted reason.

I really don't see where, within those rules, is the latitude to interpret them as go shopping every day, browse the supermarket shelves, sunbathe in a park. How does any of that fit within the rules?

On another thread there's a poster saying she's got symptoms and has been going out running every day because she thought it was ok.

On this thread, a poster seeing their grandchild because they think it's ok.

How can you justify people interpreting the rules as they see fit, when it leads to dumbass decisions?

Do you mean the poster you mention went running after developing symptoms? Or just that going running every day when you feel well is not okay? Because it is!

I don’t personally agree which the poster seeing her grandchild, but it’s obvious by this point in the thread that strangers on the internet berating her is not going to stop it happening.

I’m talking about the examples DreadPirateLuna have in her post; people going shopping more than once a week - because they have no car can only carry so much food at a time. People who look as if they are panic buying and hoarding - but are actually shopping for others. In my case, walking through the park - not “flocking”, just taking the safest route to the supermarket. These are examples are not a result of recklessness, selfishness, or people thinking the “rules don’t apply to them”. But I’ve seen all of them condemned by posters who are caught in the kind of spiral the OP is talking about.

Yes people are making up their own rules then getting annoyed when called out on it.

But I think part of the problem is what someone said earlier - that we are all going to get it anyway. That is dangerous rubbish. About 10% of the UK population is thought to have had it. Some more will get it. But most people will not get it before we have a vaccine.
If you think we will all get it anyway, then I can see why you would not follow the rules properly.

I do think the rules need to be subject to some interpretation, because people have different circumstances as in the examples I mention.

Do you mean the poster you mention went running after developing symptoms? Or just that going running every day when you feel well is not okay? Because it is!

No, the poster had symptoms and went running because it made her feel better.

And obviously going running with symptoms is not okay.

@Mrsfrumble The problem is everyone's interpretation is different. Some of those having parties broken up by the police probably thought it was okay as it was just family attending.

I know. But obviously someone else interpreted the rules as being it was ok.

Just as someone else here interprets the rules to think it's ok to mix households.

And on and on and on.

Kate Smurthwaite has just shared this publicly on face book -

Today is likely to be the day that the UK passes 1,000 coronavirus deaths in one day. We're also overtaking Spain and Italy in terms of total Coronavirus deaths and our numbers are still going up, not down. You will be hearing a lot of talk about whether this means the lockdown needs to be tightened and how long it needs to go on for. Please bear the following things in mind:

1. The UK numbers ignore those that have died in care homes and at home. The real number is way higher.

1. The timeline for catching COVID-19 to developing symptoms, escalating problems, hospital admission, complications and death is at least three weeks. All these people caught it before "lockdown" in the time period where the government had been advised to implement lockdown and done nothing because they were worried about the economy.

1. Calling what we have in the UK "lockdown" is HUGELY misleading. Yes you and I are not allowed to visit loved ones, shops, restaurants and we feel super-restricted and limited by that. BUT many completely unnecessary jobs have been maintained. People are still working in warehouses and factories that produce non-essential items. Building sites building posh flats still have work going on. This is "for show" lockdown. Not actual lockdown. The UK is still more focussed on making money for rich investors than on protecting lives.

1. Another reason it's misleading to call this a lockdown is that the airports are OPEN. People are coming to the UK from all over the world still. In fact people arriving in the UK from China and Italy are not even being checked to see if they have a fever, let alone put into a quarantine facility. That is reckless.

1. We still don't have testing for all medical staff and care workers. We still don't have community testing. We still don't have antigen testing (available for $75 in the US). We still don't have enough PPE for medical professionals. The BMA is talking today about doctors having to decide whether to carry on working knowing the risk they're taking.

This government has FAILED. They have betrayed every single person in the country. ALL of today's deaths are entirely their fault. We shouldn't be asking whether lockdown will be tightened or extended. We should be asking when the government will actually be doing lockdown. And if they think they can solve the problem by banning people from going for a run while THE AIRPORTS ARE OPEN AND NOT EVEN CHECKING SYMPTOMS they can seriously fuck off

Yes, going running with symptoms is not okay. And I can see that the distinction between “family” and “household” is causing some problems, but that seems to work both ways (I’ve seen posters on here complaining that people walking or shopping together must be breaking the rules if they don’t look like a traditional nuclear family...)

Allowing for some nuance based on differing circumstances is not the same as people not understanding the rules or deliberately flouting them.

X-posted with alloutoffucks brilliant post. Some much-needed perspective.

But they aren't mutually exclusive are they? We can be angry at both the government for how they've handled this and at individuals who won't do what they've been told to do.

I agree allout
The government has performed shockingly.

I'm seriously sick of the lectures about The Rules when medical staff are not being protected and there are no tests to check if they are infected and spreading further between each other and to their patients.

It suits the Government fine for us to be pointing fingers at each other. We need to start pointing in the right direction

@Mrsfrumble Of course none of us knows if a large group of people out and about all live together. That is why police stop people and ask questions i.e. do they all live together.

I have been watching the Government narrative on this. It has progressed like this and changed as each statement is proven to be untrue.

1. It is just like a mild cold unless you are very elderly or close to death anyway. No need to worry.
2. We all have to catch it anyway - herd immunity.
3. We all have to follow social distancing and wash our hands to protect vulnerable people.
4. We all have to work from home if we can and only go out for these reasons to protect vulnerable people.
5. You need to follow the rules otherwise more people will die. (Although this is true, those currently dying will have nearly all caught it before lock down).
6. No the police are interpreting the rules too strictly, you can do more than they say.

Interspersed are little messages about personal responsibility and that if people are particularly vulnerable they could have chosen to stay at home before lock down anyway. Totally ignoring the fact that for most people that work this was impossible until they received the shielded letter which they could give to their employer allowing them to stay at home.

The field is being set to blame the public for the high death rate. When ultimately the government is to blame.

Absolutely dances

But so much of the condemnation I see is based on assumptions. Not just on here or Facebook or whatever, but in the media too. Headlines about people “flocking” to beaches and parks. Publishing photos of commuters jammed in to tube carriages, condemning their lack of social distancing without wondering why they might need to be travelling (or how crowded the carriages might be if the service hadn’t been drastically cut). All leading to the perception that we’re a nation of selfish, heartless morons and just leading to more fear and resentment.

And I don’t think criticising the behaviour of individuals and the actions of the government are mutually exclusive, but I’m pissed off with the lack of proportion. Every criticism of the government I’ve seen on here has been immediately countered with “it would have been worse under Jeremy Corbyn!” As if that passes for political debate.

Indeed Mrs F
If there was as much attention put on the Government's failings, as accusations of putting people at risk for shoving a bottle of wine in your trolley, the Goverment might see that they cant blame the public and might, just might start doing what the fuck they are supposed to.

But no, curtain twitching and finger pointing Rule

And I am doing both. I am condemning the government and others ( chief nursing officer included) for their appalling handling of this, including the latest order to re use PPE. The negligence exhibited towards healthcare workers and the public is criminal.

At the same time, individuals are also responsible for their behaviour. It isn't governments fault that someone is going out running whilst symptomatic or that someone else is mixing households or another person goes shopping every day for a bar of chocolate. They are decisions taken by individuals.

No you're not. You say you are, then you go back to hounding people on threads.

Its the flocking to beaches headlines...and then pictures of a virtually empty beach!

No you're not.

Oh really? You know what I'm doing in real life then do you?

Words like 'flocking' and 'rushing' and 'crowding' are very emotive in the circumstances and are not helpful as they can be misleading.