Covid-19 and purity spirals

[DreadPirateLuna]

Covid-19 is a very serious illness which threatens our most vulnerable and risks overwhelming the NHS. We should all do what we can to flatten the curve and save lives. People whose behaviour risks lives (e.g. urban residents traveling out to holiday homes in rural communities) should face criticism and sanctions.

However, I can't help feeling that some of the outrage at some behaviours is less about reducing the spread and more about getting caught in a "purity spiral".

Take all the outrage about people in parks. Fresh air and sunshine is good for physical and mental health, it improves the immune system which is particularly important during an epidemic! Many urban residents have no other source of open space except the local park. The ability to get outside can be lifesaving for victims of DV. Risks of contracting disease are very low if you keep your distance from others outside your household.

Yet I've seen photos of walkers and family groups in parks, keeping far away from others, but accused of selfishness and killing the elderly and disrespecting the NHS. Parks in London have been closed, meaning more congestion of other areas and residents confined to homes, which is damaging for reasons outlined above.

And it's usually (though not exclusively) women and esp mothers who get blamed. Those selfish Karens and their broods.

A more sensible solution would be to allow restricted access to the parks. Maybe allow only locals in nearby flats without gardens. But it seems we're not doing sensible these days.

How can you not see the irony here? You've been arguing all along that you know better than the government scientists. The experts are telling people that for most people it's fine to go for a walk/buy whatever you want in the supermarket and you're arguing that their advice isn't enough

Nope. I've said that people should follow the rules from government which are, amongst others, you go out once a day to exercise - not sunbathe, sit in the park, drive for miles to go to a beach - that's what I have a problem with. People arguing that " what harm does it do, sitting in a park maintaining social distance?" because that is not what we have been told we can do.

The government have also repeatedly stated that we should go out as little as possible, for essential shopping or medical reasons, for exercise or to care for a vulnerable person but to.minimise the time spent out when doing this. So browsing in the shop, or going every day is not in keeping with those guidelines.

It is not me who is making up rules. The people who are making them up are the ones who are trying to interpret them as loosely as possible - somehow go out as little as possible and minimise your time out means " go shopping every day and wander around to see what takes my fancy"

Go out once per day to exercise but minimise time out means " sunbathe in the park all day"

And do not mix households apparently means "see our granddaughter because she only lives a mile away".

So no, it isn't me making up rules. It's people taking perfectly clear rules and then re interpreting them to suit themselves.

why on earth have you sent your children away?

I haven't sent them away. One is at uni and was there when lockdown was announced.

The other is a teacher, who is still at work.

So, they can't come home and we can't go and see them. It's my daughter's 21st in a couple of weeks and I won't be able to see her, so I have to be here knowing that she's there on her own while others are just doing whatever they like because the rules don't apply to them?

But you haven’t been to work for weeks, according to you. You have no idea what is happening in supermarkets now.

Of course I know what's going on. My husband goes in there once a fortnight to do our shopping and I'm speaking to my friends there every day. Why wouldn't I know what's happening? I can't go out but I'm allowed to talk to people on the phone

And do not mix households apparently means "see our granddaughter because she only lives a mile away

this is the last time i'm going to respond to you---because no matter what anyone says it seems to be feeding your outrage and fear.

My granddaughter is a part of our family unit, and has been from the day she was born. My daughter is a single parent, and they have no garden. My granddaughter is not at school, because it is closed; cannot have play dates with friends; cannot go to the playground in the park, or to any of her other normal social activities. She doesn't go to the supermarket with me or my daughter, either.

She plays in our garden/house, and goes out on her scooter with us a family unit. She then goes home, in her mother's car, at the end of each day; repeat........

We all have responsibility for each other.....and it does no-one any good to unnecessarily self flagellate or martyr themselves. Mental and emotional well being are very important. At present we are managing to maintain a happy and healthy household - within the guidelines around social distancing and unnecessary car journeys.

I'm not going to apologise for any of that.

You do realise that children still need to be looked after......and that people who are strictly shielding require others outside of their household to act on their behalf in any number of ways....from delivery drivers, packers, post office staff, maintenance engineers, shop workers, local charity volunteers, and medical staff ( many of whom also have children that need to be looked after so that they can work).

I'm sorry that you can't see your own children, but I'm not going to feel guilty about seeing mine. One of my sons is working from home at present ( he works for a housing association, on their 24 hour help-line for vulnerable and elderly residents - and so is very busy at present), the other works in Barcelona ( for a health company) and suspects he's already had the virus...but is now back at work.....in fact the company is taking on lots more new staff. We were expecting to see him in March - but we obviously won't be able to until flights are re-instated.

Aah, right, so they're not children, they're adults who live away from home, not quite the same thing then at all hmm

Wtf? They are my children. Have I ceased to be a mum then because my children are in their early twenties? My DD still lives here. This is her home. In two months time her lease ends on her student flat. Where do you think her home will be?

Do you have offspring? What do you call them if not children?

justhadathought I would really plead with you to follow guidelines on social distancing. It is not just your judgement that matters here. It depends on how many households have contact with each other so if you have contact with another household and they in turn have contact with another then the spread goes on.

And in general it's not just the distancing but what you leave behind in shops etc which is why the ask is to minimise contact with the fabric of buildings etc as well as people in these places.

My granddaughter is a part of our family unit, and has been from the day she was born. My daughter is a single parent, and they have no garden. My granddaughter is not at school, because it is closed; cannot have play dates with friends; cannot go to the playground in the park, or to any of her other normal social activities. She doesn't go to the supermarket with me or my daughter, either.

None of which is permitted. So, another one who just thinks the rules don't apply.

Why should any of us follow the rules then? Let's all just do whatever we personally are comfortable with. Of course lots of people will die, but, hey, them's the breaks right? All that matters is that we get to do what we want, right?

My youngest son still lives at home.

None of which is permitted. So, another one who just thinks the rules don't apply

Which is why she is not doing any of them.

Of course lots of people will die, but, hey, them's the breaks right

Get a grip! Lots of people are not going to die because a five year old plays in our garden and goes out once a day on her scooter.

Ive never understood why when someone is breaking the rules its extrapolated out to ‘everyone is doing what ever they want’

Lots of people are following the guidelines its never going to be 100% but the more people do it the better

Which is why she is not doing any of them.

She's coming to see you, which is mixing households, which isn't allowed. Just because you consider her part of your family unit, they have no garden and school is closed it doesn't make you part of the same household, so you should not be mixing.

My parents have not been out since lockdown started and I'm shielding so it's fine for us to mix then, right? I can visit them and they can visit me yes?

Except that no we can't because we are separate households and my husband might have it and could pass it to me and I could pass it to them. So then that's created a transmission risk that didn't need to be there. It doesn't matter that we might all think it's only a small risk or it probably won't happen because it isn't for us to make our own interpretations of the rules.

Get a grip! Lots of people are not going to die because a five year old plays in our garden and goes out once a day on her scooter.

But why is it only you allowed to break the rules? If you can do it then so can every grandchild who wants to see grandparents, or every child that doesn't have a garden should be able to go visit someone who does, right? Why should it be only you and your grandchild for whom the rules don't apply?

Then every lonely person should be allowed out to visit right? Or anyone who is finding this tough - all should be allowed to go and visit someone.

Why is it only you for whom the rules don't apply?

I can’t work out if we have strayed far from the original OP

Or whether we are now proving the point of the OP

Ive never understood why when someone is breaking the rules its extrapolated out to ‘everyone is doing what ever they want’

But why should some people follow the rules, despite it being extremely tough on them, while others get to do whatever they like? If we're going to say that we'll ignore some who are breaking the rules, why should anyone follow them? We can all consider ourselves special can't we?

This looks superficially like a purity spiral, but I think it is a fear spiral.

I think you're right. We are all afraid. It's a terrifying situation and most of us have high-risk people we love. The mounting death rate and rapid changes to our lives have us all a bit crazy.

Fear can become anger. Some of this anger is justified: against a govt that mismanaged the situation so horrifically, against people indulging in high-risk behaviours that increase the spread.

But when the fear spirals, that anger hits out at targets who don't deserve it. Crowds in a park (a huge park with loads of space for social distancing). That selfish hoarder with the full trolley (buying for several households). That waster-of-time buying a small number of items (lives locally and doesn't have a car). That selfish cow buying wine and bubble bath (a nurse planning a rare night in).

Life's a bit shit at the moment. Can we not make it more shit than it has to be?

Life's a bit shit at the moment. Can we not make it more shit than it has to be?

So, how about the people who are breaking the rules or bending them into a ninety degree angle, make life less shit for everyone?

that anger hits out at targets who don't deserve it

Absolutely

Really? So people mixing households don't deserve anger?

People congregating in parks don't deserve anger?

People attending the 1000 gatherings that Greater Manchester police attended last weekend don't deserve anger?

People deliberately flouting the rules don't deserve anger?

Surely if we all decided that our extended family were part of the same household, it would completely defeat the object of the government's advice not to visit other family members?

My elderly DM lives on her own (although in a supportive community with lots of friends), I'd love to go and see her and pretend we're all part of the same household but we're not. We live in different houses.

My granddaughter is not at school, because it is closed; cannot have play dates with friends; cannot go to the playground in the park, or to any of her other normal social activities. She doesn't go to the supermarket with me or my daughter, either.

How does this differ to the situation every other child is in? Plenty without gardens and single parents. NONE of them can go on play dates or to the playground, or normal social activities. What makes your granddaughter different?

Should my children go and see their grandmother - she only lives 100 miles away but that is ok right? Would it be ok if her other grandchildren came around at the same some? After-all she has been Involved in their lives since they were born? What harm can half a dozen children mixing do? They are all from the same family? And of course they have two sets of grandparents, it is ok to visit the other set too isn’t it????

Way to deliberately miss DreadPirateLuna’s point

She (? sorry if you’re not!) already mentioned anger against people indulging in high-risk behaviour as justified. But then goes on to list behaviour that people caught in a purity spiral would perceive as being worthy of their anger, but are actually not. Just people making different choices because of their different circumstances. THAT’S the problem. Not that people are no longer allowed to do exactly as they please.