Covid-19 and purity spirals

[DreadPirateLuna]

Covid-19 is a very serious illness which threatens our most vulnerable and risks overwhelming the NHS. We should all do what we can to flatten the curve and save lives. People whose behaviour risks lives (e.g. urban residents traveling out to holiday homes in rural communities) should face criticism and sanctions.

However, I can't help feeling that some of the outrage at some behaviours is less about reducing the spread and more about getting caught in a "purity spiral".

Take all the outrage about people in parks. Fresh air and sunshine is good for physical and mental health, it improves the immune system which is particularly important during an epidemic! Many urban residents have no other source of open space except the local park. The ability to get outside can be lifesaving for victims of DV. Risks of contracting disease are very low if you keep your distance from others outside your household.

Yet I've seen photos of walkers and family groups in parks, keeping far away from others, but accused of selfishness and killing the elderly and disrespecting the NHS. Parks in London have been closed, meaning more congestion of other areas and residents confined to homes, which is damaging for reasons outlined above.

And it's usually (though not exclusively) women and esp mothers who get blamed. Those selfish Karens and their broods.

A more sensible solution would be to allow restricted access to the parks. Maybe allow only locals in nearby flats without gardens. But it seems we're not doing sensible these days.

This looks superficially like a purity spiral, but I think it is a fear spiral.

Ok that's a fair point. They have a lot of similarities though. And the clapping policing etc is a purity spiral and there are elements of purity in some of the rest of it.

*Then that's utterly ridiculous and in clear breach of the rules but again, another excuse as to why you are different and the rules don't apply8

We are doing what we have to do to survive and not be driven demented. That would do nobody any good. We take all sensible precautions and spend most of our time in the garden during the day.
I'm not going to apologise for that. My husband is the one that is most officially 'vulnerable'.....but he's not living riddled with fear. Prolonged anxiety & fear in itself can make you ill...and is likely to weaken your immune system.

Do you have a garden?

There were initial concerns that ACE inhibitors put you at risk from severe complications but I haven't heard much more about it. Presumably they are still looking into it. It's want the case that it affected your immunity but that it affected the way the virus could bind with receptors in the lungs.

Basically, if the BP medication affects the immune system then your friend would have infection control guidelines to follow all of the time. It would affect her Covid or no Covid. So I have to avoid eating certain foods, soft cheese, under cooked eggs and meat, have to contact the Dr immediately if I develop a sore throat or fever ( before Covid), have to avoid anyone with chicken pox and so on. Standard precautions that I've had to follow since I started treatment because I am immunocompromised.

Having high blood pressure puts you at risk of suffering severe complications because your cardiovascular system is already struggling. The extra insult of SARS puts even more strain on an already weakened system. It isn't about your immune system.

We are doing what we have to do to survive and not be driven demented.

So it's ok for everyone to follow suit is it? We can all interpret the rules in ways that best suit us? So, basically no point in having any rules then is there? It's only fairly safe for you to do what you are doing because other people are following the rules exactly. If we all did what you are doing them the NHS wouldn't cope and death rates would be many times higher than they are now. I don't get why you don't see this? That it's fine for other people to do the really hard work, in order to keep you and yours safe enough to flout the rules.

And yes I have a garden but I can't use it because our neighbours are out there a lot and I can't keep at least two metres away from them.

Justhadathought so you are mixing households in clear breach of requirements, your family members are going out several times a day on nonessential trips, you are shopping in a manner that increases risk (lots of little shops), either you or your daughter’s household are making non-essential trips to take your granddaughter from one household to the next. You really don’t care about lockdown do you? Just what is nice for you.

Hooves - you are being asked to shield to protect yourself not wider society. Others are being asked to social distance to protect wider society and, in particular, the NHS. Two completely different things. People taking thirty seconds extra in Tesco to buy an Easter egg as well as the Hooves-approved ingredients for their Pandemic Gruel are not putting you at extra risk.

The shielding guidance (yes, I do have personal experience of it) makes it very clear that following it to the letter is an intensely personal decision rather than a set of unbreakable/enforceable rules and provides suggestions about mental wellness and not fixating on activities that distress us. It is wise advice and you should probably follow it because this thread is clearly not doing you any good at all.

I suspect that a large percentage of the population will already have had Covid or are likely to at some point. Those in hospital or in care homes are going to be especially vulnerable - and that includes the staff that work there.

I've read a couple of articles in The Spectator over the last few days.....in which doubts and concern about the automatic and high use of ventilators has been questioned; and about overly early admittance to hospital: www.spectator.co.uk/article/Ventilators-aren-t-a-panacea-for-a-pandemic-like-coronavirus?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BOCH%20%2020200409%20%20GC&utm_content=BOCH%20%2020200409%20%20GC+CID_e56628a9c93f67dcca94bad7d36f8e6c&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_term=Ventilators%20arent%20a%20panacea%20for%20a%20pandemic%20like%20coronavirus: german lung specialist questions use of ventilators - the spectator

www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-treating-its-coronavirus-patients-differently-

So are you saying you would be happy to sign to say you would forgive a ventilator doctors might feel necessary in favour of someone who has been observing lockdown properly?

So it's ok for everyone to follow suit is it? We can all interpret the rules in ways that best suit us

Pretty much, yes! As long as you are following sensible social distancing and cleanliness guidelines, and avoiding too much contact with those outside of your family unit.

*forgo

So are you saying you would be happy to sign to say you would forgive a ventilator doctors might feel necessary in favour of someone who has been observing lockdown properly

I'm not making definitive statements...I'm posting links which some might find quite interesting.

Have you read the articles. That was quick!

WhatKatyDidNot

Again, you seem to assume that "allowing people to buy whatever they want" translates into "buying an Easter egg when doing a big shop". Why? Why doesn't "buy whatever you want" = "shop as you normally do. Spend a couple of hours in the superstore looking at everything, browsing the clothing department, wandering around home furnishings"? You are looking only at your own behaviour whereas I'm looking at it based on the behaviours that I was seeing every day at work.

And thanks for the faux concern but I'll manage my mental health as I see fit thanks, not how you tell me too. If it's fine for everyone else to interpret lockdown guidelines however they like then I'll do the same.

There were initial concerns that ACE inhibitors put you at risk from severe complications but I haven't heard much more about it. Presumably they are still looking into it. It's want the case that it affected your immunity but that it affected the way the virus could bind with receptors in the lungs.

They are still looking into it, as there was limited evidence/speculation both that ACE inhibitors/ARBs were problematic, and that they potentially had a protective effect during the illness. And the advice from NHS has remained that you should not stop taking blood pressure medication.

www.jwatch.org/na51345/2020/04/09/ace-inhibitors-and-arbs-during-covid-19-pandemic

You really don’t care about lockdown do you? Just what is nice for you

I don't care about curtain twitchers and virtue signallers, no. I trust my own judgment and follow the guidelines about social distancing.

I am following the correct social distancing advice but I really dislike the whole 'would you be willing to forego treatment?' line of thought. Even if someone who flouts the rules becomes ill there is no guarantee that they caught the virus whilst flouting the rules. Yes, it's against the current law and they shouldn't be doing it, but they could actually have picked the virus up from a trolley whilst doing their essential shopping. I don't like the idea of deserving and undeserving sick people. If you came across a car smashed into a tree on a country road you wouldn't just stand back and refuse to dial 999 because the person had clearly been speeding so they don't deserve an ambulance.

I’m saving my criticism for the government and those who could have made a difference months ago. Or years ago.

In 2017 the government ran a simulation (war game?) with key stakeholders and scientists to explore the risks of a flu pandemic. The results showed we didn’t have enough ventilators. The report was never published and the learnings weren’t learnt. One of the scientists was on the World at One (radio 4) this week talking about it.

I’ll save my wrath for the people who ignore the advice of experts and disregard the safety of thousands -not the person too fed up with being inside and taking the rules to the edge

I suspect that a large percentage of the population will already have had Covid or are likely to at some point.

Then you suspect very wrongly. Results coming out from Germany, from a hard hit area, are showing only 15% of the population infected. They are awaiting results from UK and Italy but modellers are suggesting rates between 10 and 15%. You need at least 60% for herd immunity.

Pretty much, yes! As long as you are following sensible social distancing and cleanliness guidelines, and avoiding too much contact with those outside of your family unit.

Well you aren't doing that are you? We are explicitly prohibited from mixing households and how are you social distancing from a five year old? So, basically everyone else can follow the rules, apart from you? So, let's all do what you're doing. Obviously the NHS will be overwhelmed and thousands will die, including from non Covid related illnesses and accidents but none of that matters right? All that matters is that individually we do what we want to do. Screw everyone else.

Yes, I'm following the shielding guidelines because I'm fifty. I'm not ready to die yet. I'm not ready to leave my kids without a mum or my parents without a daughter. I'm also not willing not take NHS resources away from someone else because of my selfish actions. But hey, maybe you and your husband aren't fussed about any of that? Presumably if he catches this he is foregoing any hospital treatment?

And thanks for the faux concern but I'll manage my mental health as I see fit thanks, not how you tell me too. If it's fine for everyone else to interpret lockdown guidelines however they like then I'll do the same.

It wasn't concern, faux or otherwise. It was advice since you seem to be spiralling. Government advice - you know, the stuff you're telling everyone else to follow to the letter.

I trust my own judgment and follow the guidelines about social distancing.

So you know more than the government scientists then who have prohibited mixing households because you know best? And you aren't social distancing. How can you with a five year old?

It wasn't concern, faux or otherwise. It was advice since you seem to be spiralling. Government advice - you know, the stuff you're telling everyone else to follow to the letter.

And that apparently it's fine to ignore because we can all do whatever we like, right?

So you know more than the government scientists

I said last night that I wasn't going to respond to you any more but I saw this and couldn't resist.

How can you not see the irony here? You've been arguing all along that you know better than the government scientists. The experts are telling people that for most people it's fine to go for a walk/buy whatever you want in the supermarket and you're arguing that their advice isn't enough.

Spend a couple of hours in the superstore looking at everything, browsing the clothing department, wandering around home furnishings"? You are looking only at your own behaviour whereas I'm looking at it based on the behaviours that I was seeing every day at work

But you haven’t been to work for weeks, according to you. You have no idea what is happening in supermarkets now. The clothing section is roped off in our big Sainsbury’s and our Tesco’s has limited entry in, one way arrows around the store, with distances marked off so you shuffle forward in turn. You can only ‘browse’ what is immediately next to you whilst you wait.

isabelle quite right, I wouldn’t either but more wandering how far people are prepared to follow through on the consequences of their actions. When someone is ignoring lockdown rules because they think they are special and know more than epidemiologists with all the facts then are they also prepared to accept the outcomes of this decision when they impact them personally.