Center Parcs spa changing rooms again

[flowery]

Along with a few others, I emailed Center Parcs to enquire about the changing facilities at Aqua Sana, and whether they were no longer single sex, and expressing my concern about that.

I had the standard line sent back by email, "we trust everyone to be nice and we respect everyone's dignity", to which I responded saying I was glad they prioritised my dignity, but that's not good enough.

I had a phone call back, during which I was told that "they use the private changing room" and "they are going through a transition" and "they are female legally".

I requested that the response be confirmed in writing, which I was promised it would be. Surprise surprise, no such email was forthcoming. So I chased it. Nothing. I chased it again, copying in the main guest services email. I asked three direct simple questions.

1. Is it in fact Center Parcs policy that transwomen only use the private changing room in the spa?
2. I was told "they are going through a transition", does Center Parcs seek any evidence that this is indeed the case, or does a person just need to wander up and proclaim themselves to be a woman?
3. I was also told "they are female legally" - this is only the case if the person has a GRC, can Center Parcs confirm the policy of allowing entry to female changing rooms only applies to transgender individuals with a certificate?

I have now had a response, which basically says, "we're not telling you, and we're not talking to you about this any more, we have nothing further to say".

WTF?!

I'm not actually sure what to do now. The email also says this is the most senior person so I can't escalate it. I told her unless she is the CEO, she is not the most senior person thank you very much.

Have you booked yet?

If not, this appears to be the CEO's email and you could say your £xxx booking depends on getting this info: [email protected]

Best thing to do? Boycott Centre Parks and write to them explaining why. They are woefully ill-informed (as are most businesses/institutions it would seem) and are putting women and children at risk.

I have already booked for July and I was really hoping not to have to cancel. I will though. And I'd better get a full refund too.

I can't believe they are literally just refusing to answer my questions. It's not like I'm asking for compensation or asking them to actually do anything. I just want clarity!

Thank you for the email address I will use it.

I am such a good customer, we've been twice a year for basically a decade.

They've probably had best part of £40k out of us over the years. Holidays, money spent there, separate spa days, sometimes we take extended family...

Oh flowery great minds!

I've just been in the phone to them as I had no response on email.

I'll have to write it up later as doing the school run but it was an interesting conversation.

I recommend giving pre arrival services a call. Would be great if you can keep the front line person talking to the point when they put you through to a manager. The more we say it the more the pendulum could swing back, and judging by the feedback they've already had it could.

Will be back later or will maybe DM you.

Person I've spoken to and been dealing with is apparently the "manager of the team that deals with complaints", so I'm not convinced I'd get anyone more senior on the phone.

Mr Dalby will be getting an email from me. Or an essay, probably....

Cc it to Janice Turner?

Person I've spoken to and been dealing with is apparently the "manager of the team that deals with complaints"

Have you made a complaint flowery or is it that up to now you've just been asking for details of their policy? I would imagine that the "manager of the team that deals with complaints" does not decide policy but the output of their team could be an input which is used to formulate policy change/development.

Sorry Flowery that was a daft suggestion, I read your OP in haste.

Is there an ombudsmen to contact, if you are further disappointed by Mr Dalby.

I'm the same as you though, my issue was Self ID being applied in the spa changing areas (and they allow 14 years old in alone and 11+ if accompanied).

It's appalling customer service that you have received, essentially he told to shut up and move along and refuse to engage with you further.

I was told (by front line staff) that the spa staff might ask a TW to change elsewhere if I was uncomfortable and I said I was uncomfortable but I was also told that it was highly unlikely that a TW would be in there when I was but that's the thing with Self ID isn't it, who knows when it might happen.

I got the impression that they are struggling to apply the policy to real-life situations and there was a level of dissatisfaction that has meant someone has noticed but that certainly hasn't been your experience.

I'll check if they are part of ABTA but I imagine you would have more success with the HQ first.

Good luck and you're not alone.

From a contractual point of view, I'd be curious if their refusal to provide an answer could be grounds for cancelling the booking without penalty.

If it could be shown that it was a material fact in the booking process, then it's highly likely they could not enforce any penalty clauses retaining any deposit. Which is not a great position to be in as business that generally relies on advance bookings.

Maybe ask in legal ?

Not sure if this is helpful but this policy has only recently changed and aside from the risk assessment (they won't have done one), impact assessment (ditto) or the insurers not being informed (unlikely), I wonder if there is any duty of care to inform customers when there is a policy change like this, prior to booking.

As of Sept last year CP didn't apply Self ID, I know as I checked. It was the thread here about Vicky Hodges that made it clear that Vicky was able to use the women's changing rooms in the Spa during Vicky's visit in Jan. I don't know exactly when the policy changed but if someone has booked before it changed, like an airline who changed departure times or carrier, or a hotel who has to inform about building work, do they not have some legal responsibility here?

Looks like Center Parcs are making it up as they go along.

I certainly wont be visiting until this is clarified.

”Have you made a complaint flowery or is it that up to now you've just been asking for details of their policy? I would imagine that the "manager of the team that deals with complaints" does not decide policy but the output of their team could be an input which is used to formulate policy change/development.”

It was a query initially. I emailed Guest Services in a slightly ingenuous way saying I’d heard online that this was the case, surely not, could they reassure me. Once I was getting replies I quoted the Equality Act at them and expressed my dissatisfaction I have been very courteous and reasonable thus far. My last email was literally asking for confirmation of what I was told on the phone.

”It's appalling customer service that you have received, essentially he told to shut up and move along and refuse to engage with you further”

It was actually a woman, believe it or not.

”Good luck and you're not alone.”

I genuinely really appreciate that

I still can't get over the 'we trust everyone to be nice' response that they gave out before. Like, just, what the fuck? Can you imagine a school working on that principal?

Or is it just that Center Parcs thinks it's too 'naice' to have to bother with basic safeguarding?

It's a good job I think it's just overpriced shite as it means i don't have to boycott!

Then your query needs to go to the people who have formulated policy or are formulating it since they should be in a position to understand how it is intended to work in practice. This is above the paygrade of a complaints team.

It's like being on a football field and wanting to ask whether something would be a foul while being directed around to players, people on the touchline, etc but not to the referee.

”From a contractual point of view, I'd be curious if their refusal to provide an answer could be grounds for cancelling the booking without penalty.

If it could be shown that it was a material fact in the booking process, then it's highly likely they could not enforce any penalty clauses retaining any deposit. Which is not a great position to be in as business that generally relies on advance bookings.

Maybe ask in legal ?”

DH is a partner in a City law firm, specialising in commercial litigation. So I have plenty of excellent free legal advice and I’m certain he’ll be able to sort that side of things

But actually I really don’t want to. I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but Center Parcs is my happy place And my kids. I’m actually really really upset as well as being angry at their attitude. As I said to manager woman, we’ve been coming for a decade and in all that time have only ever had fantastic customer service, until now.

Perhaps send them the Times article showing the increasing level of assaults in mixed changing rooms, vs single sex. I think it was published last year. Small numbers but still significant.

spongedog the vast majority of changing space in the swimming areas is mixed sex cubicles. There are just a couple of larger Single ‘sex’ rooms/cublicles. You would have to want to specifically change in those spaces as the default (in terms of what you see in the changing area) is the unisex cubicles.

I’m actually really really upset as well as being angry at their attitude. As I said to manager woman, we’ve been coming for a decade and in all that time have only ever had fantastic customer service, until now.

I hope you can get some answers. Sounds like you have been an excellent customer. I hope that counts for something.

The whole ‘It’ll probably not happen when you’re there’ reply is so irritating. Yes, men who claim to be women and insist on using women’s facilities may be rare, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a problem. Many women will be put off by the possibility, by not feeling certain that their safety and comfort, and that of their children is a priority.

And if you ARE that woman who finds herself trapped with a man in the women’s changing, it makes no odds at all that you’re the only one it happened to.

Perhaps send them the Times article showing the increasing level of assaults in mixed changing rooms, vs single sex

But it shouldn't get as far as assault. Why is me not being uncomfortable enough?

Centerparcs KNOW that not everyone is nice - there have been cases of assault on their premises. I linked to one of them on the other thread about Vicky Hodges.

I hope you can pursue this, OP. Or at the very least cancel without any financial penalty.

Arguably, they've changed the terms of the holiday- because last year the communal female changing rooms were female only, (or at least only accessible to post-op tw) until Pink News kicked up a fuss.

Thy e single sex changing spaces relate to the spa. Family changing has always been mixed sexile most swimming pools as mothers can change with sons, fathers with daughters, until the time comes for them children to change alone, with the same sex parent nearby.

I also got the following on the phone:

1. TG people aren't sexual predators - no is didn't say that, but with Self ID they can be can't they. Paedophiles appear in all walks of life.

1. It's highly unlikely to happen during your stay - well the thing is that Self ID means it can happen at any time because not certificates are required so any one at any time can say they feel they should go in and you let them

1. I said I would prefer to stick to sex as the basis for the changing rooms, everyone knows where they are, no one needs to feel scared or uncomfortable

1. I also said that I know of a paedophile who went to the Notting Forrest site but that I realised they don't do background checks on guests and that parents have the same responsibility to protect their children as they would in any public place. I also said that paedophiles go where children are.

TBH I think this is the last time we visit CP. the more I think about it the more grubby and dissatisfied I feel.

If they don't care about women or children or my holiday experience I'm not sure I want to spend my hard earned cash going there.

For god's sake, it doesn't matter what the likelihood is of a particular incident happening or not at a specific time. The question is WHAT IS THEIR POLICY? What do they ALLOW or PROHIBIT?
Any company worth their salt must be able to answer that, surely?

Exactly. The stuff about sexual assault likelihood is relevant to their (I imagine non-existent) risk assessment conducted prior to changing the policy. But actually, it shouldn't matter. They told me that treating customers with "dignity and respect" was their priority. But allowing male people to announce that they are female and then wander into open plan changing facilities previously reserved for females isn't treating me with dignity or respect.

And yes it's ludicrous that they literally won't confirm their policy to me. Fine, if that's what they've decided their policy is, that's entirely up to them. But if so, own it! Say so! Be clear to customers and on their website what their policy is, so that everyone can make an informed decision about attending or not. How is transparency bad? If they feel the need to conceal this policy or be cagey about it, they must know there's something wrong with it. Why are they not proud of it??