Center Parcs spa changing rooms again

[flowery]

Along with a few others, I emailed Center Parcs to enquire about the changing facilities at Aqua Sana, and whether they were no longer single sex, and expressing my concern about that.

I had the standard line sent back by email, "we trust everyone to be nice and we respect everyone's dignity", to which I responded saying I was glad they prioritised my dignity, but that's not good enough.

I had a phone call back, during which I was told that "they use the private changing room" and "they are going through a transition" and "they are female legally".

I requested that the response be confirmed in writing, which I was promised it would be. Surprise surprise, no such email was forthcoming. So I chased it. Nothing. I chased it again, copying in the main guest services email. I asked three direct simple questions.

1. Is it in fact Center Parcs policy that transwomen only use the private changing room in the spa?
2. I was told "they are going through a transition", does Center Parcs seek any evidence that this is indeed the case, or does a person just need to wander up and proclaim themselves to be a woman?
3. I was also told "they are female legally" - this is only the case if the person has a GRC, can Center Parcs confirm the policy of allowing entry to female changing rooms only applies to transgender individuals with a certificate?

I have now had a response, which basically says, "we're not telling you, and we're not talking to you about this any more, we have nothing further to say".

WTF?!

I'm not actually sure what to do now. The email also says this is the most senior person so I can't escalate it. I told her unless she is the CEO, she is not the most senior person thank you very much.

Go the other way...get your dh (or other obviously make voice) to phone up saying that he identifies as a woman and will there be any issues with him using the female changing rooms - see what they say. If they say no issues ask them what happens if someone female objects? Ask them to put answers in writing for them to show to the relevant staff if it happens...

They’re never going to put their policy on the website. They’re relying on it being a situation that doesn’t come up that much so they can flannel & fudge their way through it

There are a lot of people invested in making sure women can never be sure they're going to be in single-sex spaces. Women might often be so, but the game seems to be for them never to be wholly confident that they will be.

This is what I think is the direction of travel for many of the proposed changes. For women always to be unsure of what they'll encounter when they're away from their homes.

Sorry what is the issue with the changing rooms? Are there no private cubicles with a lock? Like public swimming pools?

Vintage the women's changing rooms in the Aqua Sana spas at CP are open plan. There are maybe two or three separate cubicles. I'm not sure if they are full floor to ceiling doors or not.

CPs policy on Self ID access has only recently changed, within the last 6 months or so. Vicky Hodges was on here in Feb crowing about gaining access as a pre op, pre GRC transwoman into a woman's space during a visit to CP in Jan of this year.

So Self ID is the policy at CP spas and it appears that no existing customers who made bookings prior to the policy change were informed.

Planning a half-term break at Center Parcs? Did you know their communal spa changing rooms are no longer single sex? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3809668-Planning-a-half-term-break-at-Center-Parcs-Did-you-know-their-communal-spa-changing-rooms-are-no-longer-single-sex

Here it is. Benches in front of lockers. There is one private lockable room but people generally just all get changed together.

Photo doesn’t seem to have worked let’s try again

Ooooo

Centre Parcs have just guaranteed a peak in bookings from perverts. They have announced exactly how easy they will make it for perverts to claim to be trans to get access to women and girls. No restrictions lads. The dark web will be buzzing with excitement.

The photo really shows the problem.....

This is from Nov 2019

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/center-parcs-transgender-changing-rooms-ban-whinfell-forest-cumbria-a9183786.html

I'm not posting the pink news article but it states that Vicky contacted CP "just before Christmas" and Vicky holidayed there in Jan under the new policy of Self ID.

Centre Parcs have just guaranteed a peak in bookings from perverts

My thoughts exactly and why I'm so pissed off that the policy changed after we booked and paid a deposit. How relaxing is it meant to be in the spa now that I'm on the lookout for men in the women's whilst I'm getting changed?

”The photo really shows the problem.....”

Exactly. Teenagers are allowed in the spa too, not just adults.

If you go in at busy beginning and end is session times, it’s full of women and girls in various states of undress, wandering to and from the shower wrapped in a towel, drying their hair wearing just a bra, etc etc

At quieter times mid-session you could easily be in there all by yourself.

It simply beggars belief that anyone could think allowing males to self-id into that environment is in any way acceptable or sensible.

I wonder actually OhHolyJesus if your husband would be quite so gung-ho if you had a teenage daughter using the spa with you. In my experience, very few dads are keen on their daughters being semi naked around strangers of the opposite sex.

And thanks for cross-posting my thread. I think I'll update it, as the transcript on this thread makes it quite clear just what their policy is (even if they won't put it in writing).

I keep getting emails from them saying 'Isn't it time you booked your next Clymene family holiday?'

Err no thanks

I've just emailed again, I'd been promised a response by the end of Feb but heard nothing.

That is true Clymene I think if we had a daughter his whole position on Self ID and gender ideology in schools would be different. I continue to raise it and he does think it's nonsense but doesn't really understand the day-to-day impact as he bases it on likelihoods, and as CP manager said, it wasn't very likely that I will see a penis in the women's changing rooms but their new policy doesn't rule it out, it has made it much more likely.

My husband could self ID as a woman and join me in the women's changing rooms when we visit the spa. He could change in the private cubicle and we would both feel embarrassed but I would feel safer as my husband was there. This would of course make many, if not most, if not all of the other women and children there feel uncomfortable at best and so it would be the wrong thing to do for all the reasons we already know.

Whilst I think there is more risk and self ID will be abused it's more than that. I don't want to be around men when I'm naked/near naked. I don't think all men are rapists and murderers but I simply don't want to be around men in those circumstances. I don't want them looking at me, or even averting their eyes. I don't want to see their naked/near naked bodies or hear them pissing in the toilet next to mine. I just don't want them in my space.

There could be lesbians in there with me (and I certainly do hope there are as I wouldn't want them changing with the men) and I wouldn't care at all. It's not about being fancied or looked at or not looked at. It's about dignity and safety and privacy and keeping it as it bloody well is!

I wonder if it can be said to be a breach of contract. Single sex spaces will be an implied term of the contract. If they are actually providing mixed sex then it’s a contractual breach.

Indirect sex discrimination too.

I’d be making it a condition of purchase that they confirm their policy and whether they will use the sex exceptions.

”I wonder if it can be said to be a breach of contract. Single sex spaces will be an implied term of the contract. If they are actually providing mixed sex then it’s a contractual breach.”

I would say yes if a trip to the spa was booked. However I don’t think that could be argued to be a material factor in a decision to book a break at Center Parcs itself, in the way that the main swimming pool could be.

To be fair, they did refund my planned spa trip in February and I didn’t book a spa trip for July. If this isn’t sorted I don’t want to go to Center Parcs at all but I’m not sure I could argue breach of contract for the whole thing.

Has anyone tried phoning them and tutting loudly?

I’m beginning to wonder if it wouldn’t be sensible to set up a fighting fund held on trust specifically in order to support litigation against CP on this issue.

I do genuinely think there may be a discrimination case for women from religions where the fact that males may be in the changing area effectively precludes them from attending the spa.

'we trust everyone to be nice'

XD

Oh dear. If I were you I'd send them one last email with a link to this thread.