Center Parcs spa changing rooms again

[flowery]

Along with a few others, I emailed Center Parcs to enquire about the changing facilities at Aqua Sana, and whether they were no longer single sex, and expressing my concern about that.

I had the standard line sent back by email, "we trust everyone to be nice and we respect everyone's dignity", to which I responded saying I was glad they prioritised my dignity, but that's not good enough.

I had a phone call back, during which I was told that "they use the private changing room" and "they are going through a transition" and "they are female legally".

I requested that the response be confirmed in writing, which I was promised it would be. Surprise surprise, no such email was forthcoming. So I chased it. Nothing. I chased it again, copying in the main guest services email. I asked three direct simple questions.

1. Is it in fact Center Parcs policy that transwomen only use the private changing room in the spa?
2. I was told "they are going through a transition", does Center Parcs seek any evidence that this is indeed the case, or does a person just need to wander up and proclaim themselves to be a woman?
3. I was also told "they are female legally" - this is only the case if the person has a GRC, can Center Parcs confirm the policy of allowing entry to female changing rooms only applies to transgender individuals with a certificate?

I have now had a response, which basically says, "we're not telling you, and we're not talking to you about this any more, we have nothing further to say".

WTF?!

I'm not actually sure what to do now. The email also says this is the most senior person so I can't escalate it. I told her unless she is the CEO, she is not the most senior person thank you very much.

Quite right Flowery I wish Marks & Spencer would do the same. A simple sign on the changing room entry saying these changing rooms are for those who identify as women/men - it would expose the madness to your average old lady shopping for a cosy nightie.

As for CP, I wonder if you would be willing to take this forward or simply cancel the booking and get a refund.

I'm all for fighting this but it's tedious and tiresome and energy-sapping, but I did think it might be worth a group effort to demonstrate how many it affects and the impact it is likely to have on their business.

If they can't confirm what their policy is - can they confirm they have a policy and that they have done a risk assessment on it?

I absolutely intend to take it forward. I've asked for confirmation of their policy. That is all (at the moment anyway!).

It is tedious and tiresome and energy-sapping, I agree. But I'm not dropping it. There's nothing more likely to get me to make a noise as someone telling me to go away and shut up.

There's nothing more likely to get me to make a noise as someone telling me to go away and shut up

Ditto in spades.

DM me if you need back up.

Thank you

I don't have DM switched on at the moment because when I do I tend to get messages asking for private employment advice and it's easier to have it switched off than tell everyone no.

At the moment let's keep this thread updated with any progress and take it from there. I will compose my treatise to Mr Dalby over the weekend. I see I have a mutual connection with him on LinkedIn, which is interesting.

I'm so glad you're pursuing this flowery. You must feel really betrayed.

Love this — good work — watching with interest as have thought about going but this would impact my decision....

"I'm so glad you're pursuing this flowery. You must feel really betrayed."

I do, actually. I know it's silly. But as I said, it's my happy place. Some people have a favourite holiday cottage they go back to every year, which is filled with lovely family memories of the kids growing up etc. It's a bit like that for me. The first time we went I was pg with DS2, who will be 11 this year. It's been part of their childhood, and when I go there, there's no stress, I can relax, it's away from everything (but convenient, as two locations are both an hour away from us).

And suddenly I'm being treated like a nuisance and I can't go. I could cancel July and get my money back, but there's partly the principle of pursuing it, and also partly selfish reasons that I don't want to lose my happy place. I will sacrifice it to my principles if necessary, but I just actually really want them to say "Hang on a minute, what on earth are we doing? These middle class mums with money to spend are our bread and butter."

Which we are!

No it really doesn't sound silly at all. What is good about CP is that it's always the same - you know what you're getting. If you are very busy then it's just relaxing not to have to plan what to bring because you know.

I feel betrayed by all of this - by M&S, by John Lewis, by every business who has virtually spat in the tea of the middle class mums who are the foundation of their business model.

And spas are about feeling relaxed and serene. I can't imagine anything less relaxing than knowing there was a chance a bloke could walk into the changing room at any moment. And worse, that I should expect it and not complain about it.

Why are so many businesses willing to lose their core customers? I was looking at Center Parcs and Bluestone for a break in late summer (not checked the latter for their policy). We need a list of companies that aren't anti-safeguarding and privacy; FWR-approved for those women who value the privacy and dignity that single-sex spaces afford.

Why are so many businesses willing to lose their core customers?

Because they can afford to ?

"I was looking at Center Parcs and Bluestone for a break in late summer (not checked the latter for their policy)"

The problem might be actually getting out of them what their policy actually is, judging by my current Center Parcs experience!

I don't actually think any business can really afford to lose their core customers. It's just they won't, because at the moment, most of their core customers have no idea. Most of Center Parcs core customers will be blissfully unaware, and would probably be completely horrified that a male bodied person could rock up at the spa and come in the female changing. They have trust in Center Parcs that they are in a safe space and that their privacy and dignity is being prioritised. I did.

Same with John Lewis and M&S. Most of their clientele will not have a clue that when they're trying a bra on, or helping their daughter try one on, that someone identifying as a woman that day might be in the next door cubicle.

It's because these policies aren't openly communicated, and loss of their core customer is the reason for that. This way the companies get to shut up noisy people on Twitter, while holding on to their core customers most of whom are not on Twitter, or at least are in ignorance of this issue.

If they can afford to then crack on I say, let the customers they are bowing to make up the shortfall of their profit loss from loses their core customers.

John Lewis are reporting losses, M&S were on the edge before Christmas so let's see their financial reporting at year end and see how they're doing. The pink pound and rainbow pound can more than make up for it in lingerie and meal deals I'm sure.

Mcduffy check out the boycott threads for the companies list, sadly it grows and grows...

I've just had an email from M&S with 50% off sale, this is after their January sale. It's only just March.

I would miss Centre Parcs but just as I would want to spend my money in a country with shocking human rights violations in not spending my money where women's rights aren't upheld either.

If anyone has any experience of Bluestone I'd be interested to hear it...

flowery
"I was looking at Center Parcs and Bluestone for a break in late summer (not checked the latter for their policy)"
The problem might be actually getting out of them what their policy actually is, judging by my current Center Parcs experience!

Ring them up as a transwoman (I'm sure you can manage a baritone on the phone really) and ask them what their policy is for you. That will get it out of them. Oh, and record it and make it very very public that this was the only way to get at the truth.

Ring them up as a transwoman *
*
Oh yes do and see if you can book a wax.

TG people are not sex offenders

Oh ffs, that's just demonstrates extreme end ignorance.

Check the prison stats, that near half of all male trans prisoners are serious sex offenders. Male born TG people are as likely to be sex offenders as any other males.

My DH has a bass/baritone voice. He's also highly GC and if I catch him in a good mood, he might do it for me he half-jokingly offered to run a race self-IDing as a woman (he's national level running for men's 5k) to raise awareness was but I don't think his job would approve.

UPDATE: I have just sent Martin Dalby a letter via email, giving him all the correspondence I've had and asking for his assistance in clarifying the policy. I have sent him a number of links including the Times articles referenced earlier, and have highlighted that as the expectation of everyone booking the spa would be for single sex facilities, it is essential if this is not the case, that the policy is adequately publicised.

We'll see!

Here is the trans reform when I called them about this issue.

Me: Im calling to find out about your AquaSana single sex changing room policy, cos its being said online that males are being allwed into the female changing village and I want to know whats happening if that’s ok.

CP: We don’t allow that to be honest

Me: Yes, if the people, if they claim to be a transwoman they are being allowed in, theres a person saying they’ve been allowed into the AquaSana changing...open plan changing room despite being born…..

CP: I do know that with transgender guests they are allowed to go into whichever changing room which fits the gender that they are.

Me: So that is allowed.

CP: If there is someone who is transgender and you don’t want to get changed with them, we have separate changing rooms available that are normally used for first aid or for disabled guests, but they will let you use that if you don’t want to be in there.

Me: So the female is made to leave if they are not comfortable with a male?

CP: No. No. There is the option on there to use that if you are unhappy with the changing rooms, but unfortunately we cant….there isn’t an option on there for discrimination, if someone on there says they are female, they are allowed to use the female changing rooms.

Me: What do they have to prove….what do they have to show you to say they are female? Or do they just have to say it?

CP: If people have their full proof that they are female.

Me: So, a gender recognition certificate?

CP: I diddnt know there was such a thing.

Me. Yeah….yeah….so, youre saying that if im uncomfortable with their being a man in the changing room, the man will be removed, not me.

CP: If you are unhappy with there being a female transgender in the changing rooms, there are rooms that you can go into on there to make you more comfortable to get changed in there

Me: So Id be moved.

CP: If you are uncomfortable in the main changing room then they would make it so you would be comfortable so you would be moved, they would give you the option to move into the other room, where the person who is making you uncomfortable would not be in.

Me: So you are saying that male bodied people with the right paperwork are allowed in the open plan, Aquasana female changing room?

CP: What im saying is Ladies who are transgender to female, if they want to use the female changing rooms, we cannot discriminate against them and say no. Its illegal

Me: How are you deciding if they are properly…if they are female? Or if they are men just saying they are female?

CP: We would discuss that individually with the guest on there…..but we wouldn’t..

Me: You know, this is quite worrying, because…you know..

CP: By law it is illegal for us to discriminate against transgender guests.

Me: Actually, its not, because the equalitities act says you are allowed to discriminate for single sex spaces, so, youre actually able to keep them female changing areas, theres not been any change in the law regarding this. You are allowed to discriminate

CP: In regard to discrimination in the villages they wont discriminate against that..

Me: You are allowed to….

CP: However they will give you the opportunity to, if you are unhappy, if there is a transgender guest in the changing room we will open up a safe space for you.

Me: What if theres more than one person whos unhappy with it? What if all the women don’t want a man in there with them? Are all the woman going to be made to walk out of their changing room?

CP: Well, that will be dealt with by the village if that occasion ever occurs. They will make their decision there in the (cant hear)

Me: But, I just want you to know that you aren’t breaking the law by not letting men in, you are allowed to discriminate for single sex female spaces.

CP: If there is a trasgender lady, on there, they are allowed to go into the female…

Me: What qualifies them as official transgender and a lady in Center Parcs’ books? What is the paperwork they need?

CP: There isn’t paperwork like that required.

Me: Yes there is, its called a gender recognition certificate. So youre saying you allow people to self identify as men, or women?

CP: If there is someone who is transgender whether male to female or female to male they will be allowed to use….

Me: How are you deciding that they are actually..

CP: That will be that person just did it.

Me: So if they look, if they’ve grown….if they are wearing a wig. If they are wearing a wig anf they wander in, they will be allowed to stay in the womens changing room. Im worried that you don’t understand about the paperwork involved here, I feel like you don’t actually

CP: The Spa will go through any changing, any questioning reqired and make that decision there, it will be decided case by case on people going in but we will not discriminate against transgender or normal people either.

Me: Youre allowed to. Youre allowed to keep single sex spaces, that still perfectly legal.

CP: If there is somebody who is transgender to female, they are female.

Me: (The conversation just goes into me asking for a higher-up, and being told to email, and I ask for her name)

Transcript not trans reform 😅🤨

I can't believe they're not answering my questions
Your last post shows they did though? It looks like they clearly told you what their policy is.
That they don't discriminate against trans women and that they are allowed into the changing areas.
They're probably wondering what else they're supposed to say, when they've made their stance clear?

Ladies who are transgender to female?

Aren't female transgender just women who think they are men and therefore that's ok for them to be in the women's changing room?

CP needs to be clear it their language. Front line staff need more training.

That transcript is similar in the messaging with my call with them so they are at least consistent, consistently confusing and consistently not following current UK law and consistently disrespecting single sex spaces and half of their customer base.

If they are confident in their policy they'll have no problem putting it in writing and publicising it on the website.

I have been told conflicting things on the phone suggesting that GRC may be asked for and evidence of transition. I don't think that is their policy, but that is what was suggested to me on the phone, so I want confirmation of exactly what the policy is.