‘Woman or person who gave birth’

[Fooffmalooff]

I have recently been given a survey to fill in regarding care during pregnancy and birth. It’s an NHS survey.

One of the questions asks how you are related to the baby, be it birth partner, family member or ‘the woman or person who gave birth.’

I don’t know why but this has really annoyed me. Women give birth. ‘People’ (read- transgender men) do not. Absolutely fine if you identify as a man etc etc but even if you live like a man, look like a man, think like a man... if you are pregnant and having a baby, you are biologically a woman, no matter how you think/feel/look on the outside.

I just feel a bit weird about the inclusion of this on a survey which is intended for women regarding the most fundamentally female thing you can do.

Thoughts?

[Elsiebear90]

“Elsie, my explanation about my objections is clear enough. I am not going to deny biology just because it might upset someone. If a transman gets pregnant then they are a pregnant women, if being referred to as such upsets them, then tough fucking titty.”

It costs nothing to be nice, life is difficult enough as it is without making people feel like crap because “I can because what I’m saying is a fact”. There’s plenty of things we could call or say to people because they’re facts, but we don’t because it’s not nice.

[Thisismytimetoshine]

Women calling themselves women is not designed to make anyone else feel crap. We are not responsible for people who get upset about biological reality. We didn’t invent it.

[LynnSchmob]

Why should a transmen have more rights to offend people than women? Why are their feelings more important?

[Thisismytimetoshine]

Jesus, there’s the fecking “nice” thing again

[Kit19]

I don’t think it’s particularly nice for Male bodied ppl to force their way into our changing rooms/shortlists/refuges/female prisons etc

It’s only ever women who are asked to be nice, to sacrifice their spaces & language & terminology

Being nice has brought us to the point where a council can’t even fly a flag saying “woman = Adult human female” without being piled on & made to take it down for being hateful

Where are the instructions for trans ppl to be nice to women? Or don’t we count?

[MingeofDeath]

" Be nice", fuck that, I'm not nice

[Elsiebear90]

Calling people something they feel uncomfortable with and have asked not to be referred to by is not nice, that’s basic manners. If you can call people by their nicknames because they don’t like their actual name, something I do every day as a healthcare provider, then you can call someone a person instead of a woman. It’s not hard.

[Thisismytimetoshine]

It’s hard on a maternity ward!

[Elsiebear90]

Do you work on a maternity ward?

[Thisismytimetoshine]

No. I’ve been a patient on one several times. I didn’t expect to see any labouring men there.

[Kit19]

And yet women have asked repeatedly not be called cis or uterus havers or ppl with a Cervix or chest feeders

And yet somehow we still are....

[JellyfishandShells]

It costs nothing to be nice

Is the mantra that was well on the way to threatening so many things that affect women - still may, though hopefully the tide is turning.

It potentially costs a hell of a lot.

[midgebabe]

I think some people need to recognise that it is impossible to not cause offence. You are either offending people by using sex based terms or you are offending people by using gender based terms

People who object to gender based terms are no less important and human than those who object to sex based terms

[Elsiebear90]

I work in a hospital and frequently I have been asked to visit patients who want to be referred to by names completely different to their actual names, sometimes I haven’t been aware of this and they have corrected me and said “my name is John, but I prefer to be called Smithy” as an example, I don’t then say “well too bad, your name is John, not Smithy, so I’m gonna call you John, if you get upset it’s not my problem”. You know why? Because that would be extremely rude and unprofessional, because it’s rude to keep referring to someone in a way they’re not comfortable with then they’ve asked you to stop.

[Lordfrontpaw]

But having to refer to the mum of a new baby as Mr Jones would not exactly roll off the tongue.

[midgebabe]

We are not talking about a 1 to 1 interaction, but a 1 to many

[bingbangbing]

If you give birth, you are a mother.

Birth mother if you want, but you are the mother.

Mother is also a verb. If a trans man gives birth, will he not mother the child? Of course he will. So he is a mother. If we wants HCPs to refer to him as something else during treatment, that's fine. Nothing to do with me.

Doesn't mean you can take away 'mother' from other people.

There's a lot of strange stuff around at
the moment. I was on a thread were breastfeeding was considered anti-feminist.

It's all getting a bit Brave New World- the book where biological motherhood is banned.

[Thisismytimetoshine]

Elsiebear

1. Calling someone Smithy instead of John makes zero difference to anybody because it’s a name, it doesn’t have any bearing on biological reality.
   
2. Nobody is called a man or a woman when someone is speaking directly to them, it’s not a form of address. Having your correct sex recorded on your medical records is not deliberately offensive to anybody (particularly on a maternity ward!), nor does it fall under the heading of “not nice”.

[Thisismytimetoshine]

Stop it with the “trans man will mother the child, of course he will”. Mothers are female parents, by order of the court.

[Elsiebear90]

Calling someone a person instead of a woman makes zero difference to anybody other than that person because it’s true, a woman is a person. The fact that they are pregnant means everyone Is aware that they’re a biological woman, we aren’t talking about amending medical records, we are talking about how people are referred to on a form. There can be just as much if not more confusion when people are called different names to their actual names, I’ve been in numerous situations where it has caused problems.

[Thisismytimetoshine]

Referring to a pregnant person on a medical form as male is an absolute nonsense. Just to be nice, wtf!

[TorkTorkBam]

In this context I would be happiest with "person giving birth"

One of the questions asks how you are related to the baby, be it birth partner, family member or ‘the woman or person who gave birth.’

Everyone knows what it means. No reference to gender. This is not a context where they could just say woman because the other options like birth partner or family member could be woman. Mother is no good, because some grandmothers would say "mother" thinking mother of the person giving birth as their role. So, I would not find it offensive to women or data collection to go with "person giving birth"

[TheMustressMhor]

Elsie, I am a retired midwife, and I never encountered any men who gave birth, in a career which spanned several decades.

[Thisismytimetoshine]

I don’t understand any of your post, Tork.
How is it confusing to call the person who gave birth the mother??

[Elsiebear90]

Who is saying men are giving birth? Trans men give birth, who are biological women, this is about calling trans men people rather than women, it’s not about changing their medical records to male or saying men give birth.