Sarah Ditum on Rape as a boundary-crossing thrill.

[FloralBunting]

It's the Guardian, but it's actually excellent, and so, so pertinent.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/01/after-harvey-weinstein-time-to-say-no-to-line-that-rape-is-about-power-not-sex

Bumping lest this gets lost under pointless bollocks about crap BBC debates.

Bumping this because it's important.

Very interesting article

Completely agree that there is obviously a sexual component but i can understand why in a Misogynist society Feminism tried to move away from it

Yes, the power thing is important still, yes, but I think it's such an important point to make that the reason power is significant is because it creates a massive sexual kick. There is a symbiosis between sex and power that we can't dismiss, and I think that the downplaying of the sexual thrill aspect of transgression boundaries, most obviously in rape, is in part due to a misguided 'sex positivity' which is where this utterly fucking ridiculous idea of 'kink shaming' becomes part of the power mechanisms and then we lead into choking and other violent porn and sexual practices and the whole thing is a big bloody awful mess.

I'm not as articulate as Sarah Ditum, it goes without saying.

is in part due to a misguided 'sex positivity'

Yes i think that a very good point

That’s excellent
I’ve always thought that power = entitlement when it’s said rape is about power. & the entitlement/power is indeed a sexual thing for these vile men.

this utterly fucking ridiculous idea of 'kink shaming' becomes part of the power mechanisms and then we lead into choking and other violent porn and sexual practices

That seems pretty articulate to me, FloralBunting. Good post.

It's power and perversion both.

I can see why it was necessary to make the distinction between power and sex but yes, domination, transgressing another's boundaries, overcoming resistance, all of those things are key.

An interesting read and I'm glad Ditum has written about this.

Bear with me because I'm going to make a point I can't clearly articulate. I'm also not sure this is the right thread but this article put it in the front of my mind.

There's a type of male behaviour that sets off my internal red flag alert system. Its when men try to 'own' women verbally.
So many times I read accounts from women that make me intensely uncomfortable and I haven't been able to put my finger on why I reacted so strongly until I read that article.

I think the desire to 'own' women verbally stems from a dangerous impulse. Its a totally unnecessary interaction that is always initiated by the man, its a form of bullying, it always follows the same pattern and ends in the total dismissal of the woman's point of view.

Its about power and it also must be about domination that stems from a warped idea of sexual relationships; because I've never seen a man do it to another man.

The desire to rape does not appear out of thin air.

The speaking over thing, yes? When it's really overt and you can see that the man in question is determined to beat down any responses? I get that, yes.

Power is a disturbing thing when linked to a sexual impulse, and while rape is the most utterly repulsive manifestation of it, I agree, the seed of it germinates in a thousand interactions that nurture a desire to subjugate women and gain the transgressive thrill that accompanies that.

We don't want to face up to it because it's actually really fucking dark, and I think most of us believe and want to believe that the vast majority of men are decent sorts, but I've certainly heard even men I respect sucking in a disturbing amount of satisfaction from an interaction where they feel they bested a woman, even just verbally, and I think there definitely can be a definitely sexual vibe simmering not too far under the surface more times than I'm comfortable with.

We fetishize it in our culture too - I'm as guilty as anyone of that in what I enjoy when it comes to a romantic movie, for example, where the protagonists spar verbally and it's so often a story telling cue to indicate that they are destined to be together etc. Subtle stuff like that builds into a big picture.

Great article. And yes, you're right, so much of our romantic popular culture hinges on men besting women.

On a tangential note, I'm in a couple Facebook groups related to my hobby. One is mixed, the other is women only (and the hobby is so nerdy and niche and not very 'feminine' that it really is only women posting). Whenever any of us post what might be a silly idea or question in the women only group, it's met with kindness. And equally we celebrate one another successes. The mixed group is totally different. Men undermine women constantly. They ridicule them, criticise their achievements and ignore any advice if it comes from a woman.

It's very stark.

I think power has been described before as an aphrodisiac.

Interesting post inebriati. 'Owning' women is definitely a thing some men like to do, athough I do think some also do it to one another with their stupid 'banter'. Big yourself up by putting someone else down. I would link it to emotional abuse in relationships. I was on the Relationships board I think and someone posted about Amused Mastery, a way of interacting with women that some tosspot was talking about on the internet. Apparently it's talking to women the way an Alpha male should . It sounded emotionally abusive to me

I suppose if you're not allowed to rape your wife anymore and you're angry with her, 'owning' her in conversation is the next best thing. Enjoying the portrayed rape and abuse of women in violent porn probably serves a similar function. It's all enjoying getting the better of someone else.