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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lent Talk to be given by Rachel Mann on Radio 4 on Trans Identity

85 replies

kesstrel · 26/02/2020 10:54

Rachel Mann was one of the witnesses on the recent Moral Maze programme. Here is the Radio Times blurb for the upcoming talk:

"Anglican priest Rachel Mann reflects on the events leading up to Jesus' crucifixion and on her journey of identity as a trans woman."

Does anyone else find that juxtaposition a little....I can't quite find the appropriate word... Shock

OP posts:
ThinEndoftheWedge · 26/02/2020 13:47

We all have issues in life - most of us are far less self obsessed.

No Rachel - we don’t have a family resemblance. People react to you as a transwomen- not as a woman.

QueSera · 26/02/2020 13:49

"Jesus was mildly interesting, but let's talk about ME and MY journey!"

RadicalFern · 26/02/2020 13:53

This is actually one of the perennial exegetical problems - reading oneself into the story (especially into the main character).

Also. Felt this image encapsulated my feelings.

Lent Talk to be given by Rachel Mann on Radio 4 on Trans Identity
Mossyrock · 26/02/2020 14:10

Jesus’ 40-day struggle in the wilderness led to his discovery of who he was and what his mission would be. This year’s Lent Talks theme is identity - losing and gaining identity, struggling with identity, accepting and owning identity. Anglican priest Rachel Mann reflects on the events leading up to Jesus' crucifixion and on her journey of identity as a trans woman.

I'll try to withhold judgement until Mann's talk is broadcast but am struggling to keep an open mind at this point.

vaginafetishist · 26/02/2020 14:25

Progressive Christianity eh, a couple of years ago there was 'glitter ash' on Ash Wednesday in order to remember the LGBTQIA ++ community.

Sounds heretical to me but never mind. Maybe woke cookies for communion too!

Babdoc · 26/02/2020 14:27

Couldn’t they have asked one of the thousands of decent humble ministers, priests or vicars, to give a Lent talk actually about Christ, without dragging their own bloody ego into it?
Reverend Mann’s self centred spoutings are of no interest to me whatsoever - and I’m a regular church attending Christian. This woke nonsense will turn potential converts away from the faith, not attract them to explore further.
And along with PPs, I’m incensed that Mann should draw any parallel whatsoever between their own “transition” and Christ’s agonising torture, flogging and crucifixion. It borders on blasphemy and is utterly offensive.

BaronessBomburst · 26/02/2020 14:31

Rachel Mann = Rachel Man

Made me giggle. Surprised he didn't change both his names.

Michelleoftheresistance · 26/02/2020 14:32

Well we've already heard suicidal feelings, breast cancer and feeling offended in general is much much worse for trans people than ordinary people. Apparently now it's worse than Roman crucifixion.

And somehow this is not supposed to piss people off or cause nation wide compassion fatigue.

JessicaLangoustine · 26/02/2020 14:33

Didn't Jesus go around with long hair in a big frock?

I really want Reverend Narc to claim that Jesus was a transwoman. That would be comedy gold. Not to mention, theological armageddon.

FloralBunting · 26/02/2020 14:33

Progressive Christianity is maddening on this. I've got no issue with Christian's who reject the anti-gay traditional teachings, perhaps reinterpreting them, etc. It's usually based in a broader understanding of caring for the vulnerable and that's obviously always the right course.

What I can't understand is the progressive Christians I know who are shown the oppressive aspects of transing kids, and the negative effects on women, and still plough ahead with the most extreme TRA support.

Like, redressing the balance of anti-gay teachings and attitudes is great - going so bloody far in the opposite direction that you just end up endorsing the exact same conversion therapy and misogyny you were trying to escape from? That, I don't understand at all.

Xanthangum · 26/02/2020 14:44

@JessicaLangoustine the article Errol found up thread basically says that Eve and Jesus were trans:

"If we take the Genesis account in it's literal meaning, as conservative Christians demand that we do, she is also the first case of a transgender woman. God reached into Adam, pulled out a bit of rib bone, and grew Eve from that XY DNA into Adam's companion. She was created genetically male, and yet trans-formed into woman.

Then along comes Jesus and the whole pattern is both repeated and reversed. The first couple's refusal to cooperate is turned around by Mary's yes, and the second act of cloning occurs. The Holy Spirit comes upon the second Eve, and the child takes flesh from her and is born. Born of her flesh. Born with XX chromosome pairing. Born genetically female, and yet trans-formed into man."

FloralBunting · 26/02/2020 15:01

Well, tbf, the trans logic does work in a metaphysical sense, because it is, as we have been talking about for a long time, a neo-religious belief.

If you want to create another version of 'church' which embraces the quirks of transgender theology, then have at it, it's not like there aren't plenty of unprovable, untreatable beliefs in the current myriad of different versions of Christianity.

But your bizarre religious beliefs are deserving of no more respect in the ordering of laws and rights for the rest of society than anyone else's quirky religious ideas, and when your attempts to enforce your beliefs on others materially harm people, then you must be prevented from succeeding.

ChesterBelloc · 26/02/2020 15:25

*"Anglican priest Rachel Mann reflects on the events leading up to Jesus' crucifixion and on her journey of identity as a trans woman."
*
I'm wondering if this sentence is just badly written, or deliberately opaque in its meaning. "...and on her OWN journey of identity..." would surely have been clearer Confused

And yes, to a practising Catholic with ashes on her forehead today, this is beyond offensive. Not sure whether to laugh or spit nails (not a v charitable reaction!)

NotTerfNorCis · 26/02/2020 15:31

Anglican priest Rachel Mann reflects on the events leading up to Jesus' crucifixion and on her journey of identity as a trans woman.

Um. Wow.

People who compare themselves to Christ are always a bit suspect.

NotAtMyAge · 26/02/2020 15:41

And yes, to a practising Catholic with ashes on her forehead today, this is beyond offensive. Not sure whether to laugh or spit nails (not a v charitable reaction!)

Practising Anglican here who shares your reaction completely, ChesterBelloc Not sure I can bring myself to listen to the talk, especially as I found Rachel Mann's manner overbearing and hectoring on the Moral Maze.

vaginafetishist · 26/02/2020 16:08

Rachel Mann's manner and speech patterns are really peculiar.

AGnu · 26/02/2020 16:23

They've missed a trick with this one... They could've totally kept it until August & had Rev Mann on to chat about the transfiguration...

Annasgirl · 26/02/2020 16:23

Well as a resident of woke central (Ireland) I can say that I am no longer shocked that the church (any Christian church) is all for the Trans - I mean, they are still anti actual-born-females - so anyone who is on board with their erasure of women is surely ok.

I am now a lapsed Catholic, due mainly to the disrespect I received as a lay volunteer from the men in the church, but I still believe and so feel that this is offensive to all who believe in Christ Jesus, whatever their creed and whatever their current status. Oh, and I still do Lent!!!! (as do the whole family).

JessicaLangoustine · 26/02/2020 16:25

Xanthangum I have read it now, and my brain is caving in.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 26/02/2020 16:29

Luckily for me im giving up listening to complete bollocks on the radio for lent

Imnobody4 · 26/02/2020 16:33

I didn't realise that Christianity is now all about self indulgent narcissism.

pombear · 26/02/2020 17:41

Ah yes, I remember watching a short snippet of Rachel's ponderings on the link between the crucifixion of Jesus and trans issues the other day, when learning more about Rachel after the Moral Maze.

I'm guessing this'll give a taster of the Lent talk:

This section starts from about 1.40 onwards

I think that what might be made availabe is actually a radical Christian opportunity to rethink once again what it means to be embodied, what it means to be gendered, what it means to be sexed, because it seems to me that what it seems tobe one of the constant problems in the narratives and the discourses of our current church is that it's based on a rather crude presumption on what it is to be a human being, that one is either male or female, man or woman, and that the full expression of masculinity or femininity [interestingly, Rachel puts this word in air quotes] is to be found in a kind of life-long sexually-centered union

There is surely this extraordinary queering of the body that goes on in Jesus's faithfulness that leads to the risen Christ. That risen Christ is the one whose body is transformed. The body that is pushed out of the world, that is broken, that is exposed, that is treated as secondary, and second class, is the subject of the world's violence, is transformed in such a way that that body still bears the marks of woundedness, of exclusion, of loss, of being pushed out of the world

But this transformed body is not in any sense simply the body of a first century Jewish man any more. Without trans voices, without lesbian voices, without bi voices, without intersexuals, and of course without gay voices, there is simply no way forward.

That dynamic between Christ on the cross, saying I am thirsty, and that visceral bodily thirst that those of us who are longing for justice and change have, and that sense of uniting our voices.... film fades out

pombear · 26/02/2020 17:46

(The legendary Magdalen Berns' voice and that gif of her queers gender line ringing in my head as I typed up the 'queering of the body of Jesus' quote Grin )

ErrolTheDragon · 26/02/2020 17:54

Did any of that have any scriptural justification?Confused

This may be unfair (but I won't say to whom...) but reading that I'm reminded of this ... www.sof.org.nz/esausermon.htm

Thingybob · 26/02/2020 18:13

I played and replayed that clip the other day trying to understand Rachel's argument so thank-you for typing that up Pombear although sadly it still hasn't made it any clearer.

Is it because I'm not clever enough to understand theological arguments or is it because it really is a load of illogical gooblegook?