Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cartoon in the Morning Star

388 replies

Cwenthryth · 22/02/2020 21:26

Kristina Harrison (prominent gender. critical transwoman, WPUK supporter) just posted this on Twitter - apparently it was published in the Morning Star.

KH wrote “This cartoon appeared in The Morning Star earlier this week @MStarOnline It is a horrific, generalised demonisation of trans people which does not belong in a civilised society, let alone a socialist newspaper. I condemn it utterly. Trans people & progressive opponents of identity politics are owed an unequivocal apology, an explanation & reassurance about what action is being taken to ensure that the line between fierce but legitimate argument and bigotry is never crossed again. Totally unacceptable. (not posting a direct link as I don’t want to facilitate any pile on against Kristina, clearly this is a sensitive personal issue for a transwoman).

Comments are supportive of KH so far. I thought it’d be a good topic for discussion here - does this ‘demonise trans people’ or does it baldly illustrate safeguarding concerns with self-ID? Is it different from the popular/accepted(?) ‘Fox identifying into the henhouse’ analogy? Hopefully we can keep things civil and respectful with no personal criticisms of Kristina.

Cartoon in the Morning Star
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
R0wantrees · 27/02/2020 18:51

Did you watch the TedTalk I linked yesterday about political satire & freedom of speech?

MarshaBradyo · 27/02/2020 18:52

No I haven’t rtft in any case.

But it’s an interesting discussion.

MarshaBradyo · 27/02/2020 18:53

What was the upshot of it would you say? Anything goes or something else.

TorkTorkBam · 27/02/2020 19:04

There is enough of a valid point being made given the actual existence of Karen White, Yaniv and all the others who took the crocodile approach to entering the newt pond that I think this cartoon cannot be dismissed as ridiculously far over the line.

BovaryX · 27/02/2020 19:24

Should they be censored? Worth discussing.

The judge in Harry Miller's case said that freedom of speech applies to statements more contentious than kittens are fluffy. Trans activists are becoming synonymous with a sustained attack on freedom of speech. #No debate, no platform, cancel culture. It's getting very tedious. And it is getting some serious pushback. Long overdue.

MarshaBradyo · 27/02/2020 19:29

I heard in R4 a good interview where someone was pressing on the no debate thing, re GC feminists not allowed in university. I disagree with this. And thought the interviewee responded poorly.

I am interested in whether anything goes outside this when it comes to satire. As per pp.

But I’m undecided on the cartoon.

R0wantrees · 27/02/2020 19:32

What was the upshot of it would you say? Anything goes or something else.

Why not simply look upthread?

MarshaBradyo · 27/02/2020 19:33

Oh don’t worry I’ll look later.

Chriscam · 27/02/2020 21:06

@Justhadathought @CuriousaboutSamphire hi I’m interested in getting more info on this. You both mention that there’s lots of evidence re trans women being a danger to other women could you send me some info on how to access this. I’ve tried to find it online but couldn’t really find anything other than the terrible attack in prison. Thanks

Barracker · 27/02/2020 21:29

It can be read in a few ways. One is that all trans people are a threat.
Actually, no. That's daft. You'd have to assume that the crocodile represents both male and female 'transpeople', and the newts represent the entirety of the rest of the male and female populations put together. And I don't think anyone has ever argued for mixed sex spaces that include the whole of society with the exception of all 'transpeople', have they?

If a newt was entering a crocodile pond, the newt wouldn't be a threat. Or are crocodiles the only species allowed to (falsely) think they can transition?

The only logical conclusions that don't involve such faulty reasoning are:
Crocodiles are not newts
Crocodiles can never become newts
It is ludicrous to believe that 'transition' from crocodile to newt is possible
Crocodiles as a class are more dangerous than newts
Crocodiles pose more of a risk to newts, than newts do to crocodiles
Probably, some newts have never been harmed by a crocodile
Probably, some crocodiles have never harmed a newt
but
Crocodiles do not ever belong in a newt only space

MarshaBradyo · 27/02/2020 21:31

That’s long, no not daft Hmm

Actually change that to all trans women.

Barracker · 27/02/2020 21:37

Do you not believe that men are in general a greater risk to women, than women are, Chriscam?

Who do you think poses a greater risk to women: other women, or men?

Are two women a week killed by other women? I mean, I know they are killed by men at that rate, but is there another list of women murdering and raping women that I don't know about?

98% of sexual violence is committed by men. Is that not a teeny bit compelling about which sex poses a risk to which?

Women are safer with our own sex. That's one of the reasons we're entitled to same sex spaces when we need them.

ThePurported · 27/02/2020 21:52

See this thread for links Chris

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?pg=1&order=

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/02/2020 08:26

You both mention that there’s lots of evidence re trans women being a danger to other women could you send me some info on how to access this. I’ve tried to find it online but couldn’t really find anything other than the terrible attack in prison. Thanks

Start with the link above. There are a couple called 'break it down for me' and lots, lots more posts here detailing the issues. It's been the most prolific topic for a long time. No shortage of threads with links to information from a wide variety of sources, ONS included. It may take some time as there is, unfortunately, a lot of it. From doxxing, no platforming, threats, physical attacks to kidnap and rape. Yes, all here, in the UK!

And I'd just like to take a moment to modify your sentence:

You both mention that there’s lots of evidence re trans women being a danger to other women Transwomen are men!

CumannNamBan · 28/02/2020 17:40

I'vemot read it all but kow towing to bullies will get us nowhere www.facebook.com/351763554897760/posts/3552168824857201/

CumannNamBan · 28/02/2020 17:41

Apologies, hit send instead if preview. It is a mea culpa-type statement from the Morning Star

Cwenthryth · 28/02/2020 17:57

So one apology isn’t enough, clearly

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/we-failed-our-duty-equality-and-liberation

A weird mix of really questionable capitulation and naïvety, is my first take.

OP posts:
CumannNamBan · 28/02/2020 18:00

This is much worse than I originally thought

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2020

Editorial:We failed in our duty to equality and liberation

THE Morning Star is firmly committed to equality for all. Tackling oppression and discrimination that exists in our economy and society is a priority and founding principle of our paper.

Our diverse readership are a strong representation of the diversity within our communities and we let our readers down when we published a cartoon last week that did not uphold this commitment and this principle.

We understand that trans people experience discrimination, harassment and threats to their safety and even lives on a daily basis and we are very sorry that the cartoon added to that.

We apologise to our readers and the trans community unreservedly for the hurt and anger caused by the cartoon and we are taking immediate steps to ensure that this lapse of editorial control will not happen again.

In our apology we confirmed that this cartoon was not authorised for publication, but we know that raises even bigger questions as to how it came to be published, and the management committee has commissioned an independent inquiry which will report on this and advise on action to prevent it ever happening again.

We will also be reviewing our past coverage of this issue which has sometimes failed to reflect the priorities of our trans readers.

The Morning Star will renew our policy of reaching out to the trans community and become more inclusive. By working together to tackle the discrimination we all face, this paper believes that we will create a more tolerant, fairer society for all.

The Morning Star recognises that it has a responsibility to oppose discrimination against the trans community and to tackle transphobic hate crime, as well as to promote positive action and reform of the Gender Recognition Act to ensure trans people are able to participate equally in our workplaces, our communities, and our movement.

The Morning Star also recognises that sex discrimination at work arises from deeply ingrained patriarchal and systemic oppression of women and that we will continue to campaign against gender stereotyping, gender occupational segregation, violence, harassment and pay discrimination.

The Morning Star believes in the principle of self-determination and empowerment through collective action as the route to tackling the discrimination that working-class people face.

We believe that by working together and tackling discrimination and oppression faced by our readers we improve the working conditions of all workers.

We recognise that many of the issues we face are intersectional and at the same time we reject the notion of hierarchy of oppression.

We do not accept that reform of the Gender Recognition Act should or would lead to an attack on women-only spaces and will ensure that we campaign against any attacks on the Equality Act.

We understand that trans women are often welcomed into all-women spaces in our communities, and to portray trans women as a violent threat to women is a wholly unacceptable misrepresentation.

The Morning Star supports women-only spaces in addition to gender neutral spaces and is particularly concerned that our trans readers should be protected the from harassment and violence they face from the lack of gender neutral space.

We will work to oppose division between the women’s movement and the LGBT+ movement and heal the divisions that have emerged through the framing of this debate.

Respect and tolerance are crucial, and we oppose all hate crime, bullying and harassment.

We therefore oppose any construct of a debate which seeks to divide and set one group of workers against another and will ensure that this paper defends our communities against any homophobic, transphobic or sexist hate language or abuse.

The Morning Star also believes that our readers have the right to freedom of speech and also have the right to disagree, but that does not mean a right to discriminate and cause hurt and distress to others.

Kit19 · 28/02/2020 18:11

Pathetic cowardice

FloralBunting · 28/02/2020 18:20

Fucking grimly hilarious to watch this kind of capitulation. Well done Harrison and Hayton. You are no allies to women. In case anyone didn't realise.

Barracker · 28/02/2020 19:29

Good god, that statement.

Morning star are pro reform of the GRA? Seriously? They have a responsibility to promote reform of it? Bullshit.

I can't believe this is the same paper.

Well there you go. They've fallen completely as a result of this. Fuck em.

I have a responsibility to the female sex to oppose the unjust law of 2004 that made my sex a legal identity for men to own.
I will not play any part in perpetuating this massive, growing lie that men can 'transition' to women.

My sex should NEVER have been rendered a legal costume for men to wear, and their pieces of rubber-stamped paper they are granted by other men are being used as kindling to burn down the recognitions we OWN in law, the rights we OWN to be fairly recognised as our own sex.

That devastating law is the spark that has lit this entire inferno. No man becomes my sex. My sex is not a prize to be awarded to any man.

I will never recognise what isn't true.

Fuck all the players who had a hand in forcing the Morning Star into that repulsive position. Fuck all the crocodiles and all their allies and all their appeasers.

I'm fighting to repeal every single law, guideline or policy that has ever let men roleplay my sex and forced me to play along.

Gender Recognition? No.
No more 'recognising' of something that doesn't exist.

SEX recognition.
Female is a sex. Woman is a sex. Man, male is a sex. I'm going to carry on recognising SEX even if the law demands I pretend I don't.

My sex exists, and it's permanently and immutably the opposite to every single man, forever.
Recognise THAT.

Cascade220 · 28/02/2020 19:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TorkTorkBam · 28/02/2020 19:45

What on earth possessed them? What is going on behind the scenes?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 28/02/2020 19:51

It's funny that Willis hasn't realised that goading me doesn't work yet.

RE Spartacus's autocorrect issue, isn't Mx an attempt at being gender something or other, like Latinx but for titles? I thought it was meant to replace Ms. Or possibly Mr and Mrs too? Dunno but it's definitely a gender thing, so apparently your autocorrect has been Awakened.

The Morning Star capitulation pretty much just reads as "please don't eat us, crocodiles, will you eat someone else instead if we bow and scrape enough?"

FloralBunting · 28/02/2020 20:07

And if I can clarify what I meant by grimly hilarious, I actually thought the Morning Star were pretty bold, standing up to the establishment and the power of capitalism.

Now they've embraced IdPol and the utterly fantasy based privileges being demanded by trasactivism, thanks to the brave, principled stand of people like Harrison and Hayton, people who say they are all for women's rights and protections and ability to set boundaries on men, but only when approved by Harrison and Hayton, who both share a specific characteristic I can't clearly outline here, but it rhymes with 'pen'.

Pathetic, and about as revolutionary as a nice branded cup of Thatcherite cocoa. Fucking sell-outs.