Cartoon in the Morning Star

[Cwenthryth]

Kristina Harrison (prominent gender. critical transwoman, WPUK supporter) just posted this on Twitter - apparently it was published in the Morning Star.

KH wrote “This cartoon appeared in The Morning Star earlier this week @MStarOnline It is a horrific, generalised demonisation of trans people which does not belong in a civilised society, let alone a socialist newspaper. I condemn it utterly. Trans people & progressive opponents of identity politics are owed an unequivocal apology, an explanation & reassurance about what action is being taken to ensure that the line between fierce but legitimate argument and bigotry is never crossed again. Totally unacceptable. (not posting a direct link as I don’t want to facilitate any pile on against Kristina, clearly this is a sensitive personal issue for a transwoman).

Comments are supportive of KH so far. I thought it’d be a good topic for discussion here - does this ‘demonise trans people’ or does it baldly illustrate safeguarding concerns with self-ID? Is it different from the popular/accepted(?) ‘Fox identifying into the henhouse’ analogy? Hopefully we can keep things civil and respectful with no personal criticisms of Kristina.

I'm trying to find sympathy for KH's point but it's difficult. The problem is that there have been so many stories about predatory men assuming trans identities to prey on vulnerable women, that I simply can't see the cartoon as inappropriate or wrong. It's an allegorical illustration of something that is actually happening all the time.

I find it hard to see the distinction between "we can't discuss this problem in cartoon form because it makes trans people look bad" and "we can't discuss this problem anywhere at any time because it makes trans people look bad."

I can't understand why someone would assume the alligator meant "all trans people" instead of meaning "actual obvious predators." All I can assume is that there have been difficult life experiences that make KH experience this in a personal way. And while I have sympathy with that, it's very difficult to respect any argument that we have to tiptoe around our words and language on the grounds that trans people have difficult life experiences. I've seen where that leads.

I think the cartoon is fair comment concerning the risks of a policy of self-ID. It is about the potential for male predators to self-identify as women.

I've seen genuine transphobia. From older men, towards a transwoman just walking down the street. It was unpleasant and hostile and intimidating, and my heart went out to the transwoman they targeted. I do think it exists, yep. I suspect the hugely exaggerated claims make us cynical about the honest ones.

I'm torn on this. As a woman, it's just a cartoon of a bloke trying to access women's spaces with ill intent, claiming to be trans. The focus is on the biology and the risk that biology poses to us, not the identification of the male. I don't know or care if any given males are trans or not, tbh, when a male wants in a single sex space. But I do see that a transwoman might be really upset because there are people who are truly transphobic, and assume all transwomen are predatory, and this would tend to reinforce that. There are a lot of misogynists in the world who hate gay men, and I can't see why they would be any more sympathetic to trans people.

We've always said that the extremists will mean increased hate towards transwomen because trans status will be adopted as a false flag by predators. But the answer to that is to respect women and butt the hell out of our spaces, frankly.

I'm not going to be anti Harrison. She's stood up and taken shit for women's rights, and she gave evidence in support of Maya Forstater. Maybe she does just want women to like her, but most altruism is founded in self image to some extent so she wouldn't be unique there. And both have taken social risks in standing for women, given they will alienate many trans and are, as this thread shows, hardly guaranteed support from us, either. Hayton has campaigned against men in women's prisons. Asking why splits hairs over what really matters: that they aren't allowed in. I'm not going to demand purity in allies. It's not like I'm a pure soul myself - who is? They're trying to help and that's what I care about.

I don’t think it quite works to demonstrate the real life issue, because the alligator/crocodile is clearly predatory in this instance.

In reality, the predator looks just like any other male newt, or any male newt that’s identifying as a female newt. There’s no way of telling the difference.

If those advocating for mixed sex spaces could just tell us how we are supposed to tel the difference between nice gentle transwoman trying to live their lives, a dangerous transwoman like Katie Dolatowski who wants to sexually assault children in toilets, and dangerous male predator who sees this as an opportunity to gain access to women/children with their cameras, sexual assaulting and raping behaviour etc then we might be able to make a start (notwithstanding the privacy argument of course). At the moment, all three of those classes of male present the same, and the basis of the argument seems to be people should just “trust” them to be honest, and “rape will happen anyway”.

Male newts don’t attack female newts (as far as I’m aware, not an amphibian expert). The same can’t be said for humans.

But then doesn’t the fact that it is a crocodile make it very clear that it’s about predators? It’s not a crocodile in a newt costume.

Of course it’s offensive. It isn’t clear that it’s about a predatory man rather than a genuine trans woman. I can see how it’s upsetting to trans people

Right, I'm a little confused. Are we expecting careful, caveated nuance from one frame cartoons now? Not really very likely is it? They're just old school memes, meant to make very blunt points.

This is nonsense, and I will not be performing any 'proof I'm not transphobic' rituals in relation to it. It's not the cleverest cartoon I've seen, and Sandy Draws Badly and the Gender Critical Witch do it much better, but it is a blunt illustration of the problem we have been discussing for a long time, and yes, that's not a comfortable thought for all those who have been transgressions boundaries even with no nefarious intent, but that's life.

Cwenthryth
Why would people interpret the crocodile as representing ‘all trans people’ though?

If this drawing was of white people in a shop instead of newts in a pool, and a Muslim man in a balaclava, instead of a crocodile, with the caption “What’s the problem? I’m only trying to protect my face from the sunlight” would you defend it in the same way? Because it wouldn’t obviously apply to all muslim men so it couldn’t be classed as offensive, right?

*transgressing, not transgressions

^^ A lot of my post got deleted there and I don’t know why, hopefully it still makes sense, I can’t be bothered to type it out again

I think the cartoon is fair comment concerning the risks of a policy of self-ID. It is about the potential for male predators to self-identify as women.

This. The problem transgender people who get upset at cartoons like this, is that they do see themselves as represented by the predator, they know they aren't a newt, they may not be predatory themselves but they know that the newts have no way of distinguishing the genuine trans newts from the predators.

Given the way the crocodile is salivating, I think the newts are right to be concerned.

I think this presents the arguments quite well. The crocodile is a predator. Maybe there are some special vegetarian crocodiles out there but this cartoon illustrates the fear of the standard, garden variety crocodiles who are newt eaters!

Britney

A lot of my post got deleted there and I don’t know why, hopefully it still makes sense, I can’t be bothered to type it out again

Yes it made sense. I agree there are anti- semitic or racist cartoons where clearly one person is intended to represent the whole of that group. Recently there was the mural of Jewish banking and financier families ( the one Corbyn thought was ok) which was clearly intended to refer to all Jewish people.

I think it is really not stretching the bounds of credibility to see this as saying all trans women are predatory.

I interpreted it as an abusive man using Self ID to prey on women in their protected spaces. I didn't see it as an attack on trans identifying people at all

I agree Dido.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the cartoon. Cartoons in this type are mainly horrible as I mentioned upthread and often painted in a grotesque way. I don’t like any of them personally, no matter whether they represent my political views or other views or not. But i think it’s pretty disingenuous to ponder “well, why would trans people be offended by this?”

I’m all for free speech and I say keep the cartoons coming. I don’t like them, but they’re not drawn for my personal approval, so whatever, I’ll just turn the page. But I do generally think they are nasty, I do (not in this drawing but in ones about specific people) find them grotesque and drawn to highlight people’s worst facial features and I do find them horribly cruel.

I think I’m generally on the same side of reason on others on this board but if people honestly can’t see why trans people would find that cartoon offensive, no matter where they stand personally on the issue, I think that’s absolutely ridiculous of them.

The crocodile is a predatory male. That predatory male may or may not be a transwoman.

It's obviously a criticism of self id.

I have no idea if Harrison has a grc, or self id, but Harrison has a right to be offended by the cartoon. Others have a right to be critical of self id, TRA and the processes that make women only spaces difficult to maintain.

This cartoon seems to assume that all men are violent and that any man becoming or transitioning to being a woman isnt real. The reality is that trans people are marginalised and picked on. I dont understand why I, as a woman am supposed to feel threatened by some of the most oppressed people in any society. Trans people experience horrendous levels of abuse and violence and I would be ashamed to be on the same side as people who think that they are the problem.

@charlestonchaplin
The crocodile is a predatory male. That predatory male may or may not be a transwoman

If this cartoon was of a Muslim male in a shop carrying what looked like a bomb in a carrier bag with a caption “it’s just my alarm clock, no need to be worried, folks!” would you think Muslims objecting to it would be justified in doing so or not?

And again, with the disingenuous thing I brought up earlier, why say “oh, it could be but it also could equally not mean X” when the cartoon was clearly drawn to mean X.

@Sildarin
any man becoming or transitioning to being a woman isnt real.

It’s not real, as humans can’t change sex.

Any crocodile who looks at that cartoon and thinks the crocodile represents them definitely shouldn't be in any newt's spaces. Decent crocodiles would totally understand why newts don't want any crocodiles in their ponds

I think it is entirely possible to view that cartoon as saying that all crocodiles will be a threat. I'm not a crocodile and that is how I read it.

If this cartoon was of a Muslim male in a shop carrying what looked like a bomb in a carrier bag with a caption “it’s just my alarm clock, no need to be worried, folks!”

This cartoon is of a crocodile, not of a transwoman. Your analogy is begging the question, if that is a thing that analogies can do. The comparison is false.

I think it is entirely possible to view that cartoon as saying that all crocodiles will be a threat. I'm not a crocodile and that is how I read it.

yes but not everyone who self identifies into a newt pond will be a crocodile.