RUGBY review of transgender women in women's sports

[mindtheclegs]

twitter.com/WNTTgra/status/1230840273854488577

World Rugby is preparing for a "comprehensive review" of the sport's policies on transgender players.

The governing body will hold a forum next week to consult "expert voices" and is seeking elite players' views.

As a reason for the review, World Rugby cites research suggesting that reducing testosterone does not lower strength and power proportionately.

"World Rugby's vision is 'a sport for all, true to its values'," said World Rugby chairman Sir Bill Beaumont.

"There is growing recognition of the importance of autonomy of gender identity in society and all sports are currently evaluating their policies to ensure that they are fit-for-purpose in the modern sporting and societal landscape.

"Rugby is no different and this forum makes it possible to explore the best available evidence and hear the relevant expert opinions."

World Rugby follows the International Olympic Committee's (IOC) policy. Guidelines issued by the IOC in November 2015 stated that transgender women must suppress testosterone levels for at least 12 months before competition. Testosterone is a hormone that increases muscle mass.

Athletes transitioning from female to male are allowed to participate without restrictions, but the IOC is currently developing new guidelines.

"It is important for contact sports, such as rugby, to find an appropriate position for player welfare and risk," a World Rugby statement said.

Me too @field!

There have been a few rugby players speaking up. Fair play is a big theme in rugby & I have great Hope sense will prevail!

I remember reading about Maggie Alphonsi tackling Owen Farrell - he's obviously much bigger but it shows what you can do, make or female, if your technique is on point

There are parallels with MMA fighter Fallon Fox here I think. Fox has lost to a biological woman at least once but, when interviewed, the victor said she could still feel that the blows she was receiving were much heavier than would normally be the case.

My point is therefore that, while neither Alphonsi nor the MMA fighter were 'folded' by a single tackle, the cumulative effects of taking big shots from more powerful opponents will also be harmful to their health.

the cumulative effects of taking big shots from more powerful opponents will also be harmful to their health

This is a great point in regards to contact sport particularly when considered with the Swansea uni study.

Now I’m sure she could tackle him, but if he tackled her full force he could seriously injure her.

I'm not so sure to be honest. And a full force tackle? It could possibly kill her.

Women's sport is for women!

I'm training to be a competitive bodybuilder. I'm fucked all ends up if it's not kept exclusively female

We at RFU are keen to be as inclusive as possible and so will do all we can to ensure that all potential male players or coaches regardless of their gender identity or presentation are welcomed into men's rugby teams & clubs without fear of prejudice

And there's a position I would absolutely get behind. That would be actual inclusion, and represent real progress in terms of breaking down gender stereotypes and male attitudes towards gender non conforming males.

It’s indicative of the madness surrounding this that sports now feel they have a responsibility to document the reasons we segregate most sports by sex in the first place. The onus should be on transgender lobby groups to prove that mixed sex contact sport is perfectly fine. World Rugby should be saying “ok, we will listen when you have a body of peer-reviewed research to show us, until then we are going to go with the approach that humans have taken since the dawn of the human race.” But instead they have to waste time and resources pretending it’s even a thing, and making a decision based on politics not science anyway.

There are parallels with MMA fighter Fallon Fox here I think. Fox has lost to a biological woman at least once but, when interviewed, the victor said she could still feel that the blows she was receiving were much heavier than would normally be the case.

In the first round of the first fight Fox caused opponent Tamika to suffer a concussion and a broken skull, Fox did not stop until Tamika was TKO’d (unable or is declared by the referee to be unable, as because of injuries, to continue the fight)

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right… I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isn’t fair.” – Tamika Brents said.

The onus should be on transgender lobby groups to prove that mixed sex contact sport is perfectly fine.

With a start being to set up mixed sex games instead of take over and destroy female sport. Even if mixed sex contact sport does turn out, despite all obvious and apparent issues, to be the best idea since sliced bread, that still doesn't mean that the female half of the human race isn't entitled to female only sport and competition.

Additional spaces. Not destroyed spaces.

That’s a great study @Winesalot - do you know if they’re planning on following up the same subjects over time? It would be great to see how long their advantage lasted for - if they returned to their original levels after a year or two or three - or if there are still advantages 5 or 10 years later... because that would be really helpful in showing that it’s not enough just to drop levels for a year to be safe or fair to compete - the advantage doesn’t go away so just imagine how much longer it takes for the advantage to not go away for if you’ve had years of testosterone advantage.

It’s also making me wonder if a little short term dose of testosterone could be used to bolster the strength of little old ladies/etc who find themselves much weaker than they used to be - if a small dose could have long lasting effects to be clinically beneficial that would be another great reason to show long term effects of testosterone.

It’s also making me wonder if a little short term dose of testosterone could be used to bolster the strength of little old ladies/etc who find themselves much weaker than they used to be - if a small dose could have long lasting effects to be clinically beneficial that would be another great reason to show long term effects of testosterone.

Going on my own middle-aged chin hairs, the trade off in improved strength vs whiskers would be firmly in favour of the improved strength.

I don’t even know why this allowed in the first place, let alone condoned by the sports’ governing bodies. Rugby injuries can be catastrophic for players, and life changing. 😞

I’d shit a brick if either of them came at me tbh.

Hmmm. A thought experiment. If you were able to choose which one of the two, who would it be?

The most unnerving part of all of this for me is the men and there are many of them who are prepared to ride roughshod over women for something they themselves dont believe. Bill Beaumont. Ffs.

wibdib. I too would like to know if they will follow up. Surely someone will for the IAA to make an informed ruling before next Olympics.

I have read somewhere that the effects of lowered testosterone wears off in short to mid term, so surely an increase would not have long lasting effects on the muscle development. But I am guessing of course.

And of course, from other reading the testosterone boost in puberty where bone structure, lungs etc are changed to suit Adult male physique is not reversable I believe (Including the speed of muscle twitch for sprinting). Stamina is effected by lowered testosterone though. This is all from memory though. Very happy to be corrected.

There was a really sensible rugby referee on Twitter as well if I remember correctly. He said that he would refuse to referee a women’s game if a transwoman was playing because his job was to ensure the safety of all players on the pitch and in that situation he would feel unable to do so.
Something like that. I wish I organised things properly!

Septamber 2019 Times
'Too strong trans players in women’s rugby are driving referees away'
(extract)
Rugby referees are quitting the women’s amateur game because they fear rules allowing transgender women to play will lead to serious injuries.

Referees say they have been warned not to challenge bearded or heavily muscled players appearing for women’s teams.

Under the England Rugby rules, transgender women must take a blood test to show that their testosterone has been below a set level (five nanomoles per litre) for 12 months before applying to play. That is half the level set by the International Olympic Committee. But referees say they have to take it on trust rather than check whether a player has been cleared by the Rugby Football Union (RFU).

One, who did not want to be identified, said: “Being forced to prioritise hurt feelings over broken bones exposes me to personal litigation from female players who have been damaged by players who are biologically male. This is driving female players and referees out of the game.”

Another referee, who said they had encountered five bearded players in women’s teams in half a season, said: “If you even ask the question, you are told you are a bigot.” (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/injury-fears-over-rugbys-trans-women-drive-referees-off-pitch-877hjsfz0

Here you are scottishbride. The Times covered the story - one referee who stated that they had encountered five bearded players in women’s teams in half a season and said: “If you even ask the question, you are told you are a bigot

Share token:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/659962d0-e20f-11e9-8221-1b98fc56091e?shareToken=c00733dcb0f51bdcbc1b929a26ffde77

R0wantrees is far quicker than me

You weren't going to win that one Languishing

I had it open earlier today as Id been talking to a friend who played a bit of rugby!

Rugby players see this very quickly:

Male player in women's rugby team 'folds opposition like deckchairs'
www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/49298550

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Refs refusing to referee because of female players' welfare:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/injury-fears-over-rugbys-trans-women-drive-referees-off-pitch-877hjsfz0

This is Maggie Alphonsi and Lewis Moody. They both played 7 at international level. Now I’m sure she could tackle him, but if he tackled her full force he could seriously injure her.

When the "folded like a deck chair" first reared it's head I looked at the difference between the heaviest female player and LIGHTEST male player (because TRAs argue that Transwomen lose weight and muscle mass) on the International Scotland squads - it's just over five stone. You can't say that's insignificant, it's certainly dangerous

I missed this article last month, but caught it today in the dementia diagnosis article on the beeb.

Ex-England women's footballer blames dementia on heading www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-51139169

‘Sue Lopez, 74, was the first British woman to play semi-professionally abroad and represented England 22 times during a career spanning three decades.’

‘She said she wanted young footballers to stop heading the ball amid research suggesting women concussed more easily.’

‘She said heading the ball resulted in her suffering several concussions during her time competing at the top level between 1966 and 1985.’

It’s interesting that there seems to be some pushback now in sport. On similar lines I was reading an article on Jezebel about the girls in the USA sueing over transgender competitors. The article was very much ‘too bad, suck it up, you have to beat the best if you want to be the best’ but the comments were not - which was interesting as comments have to be approved by an approved commenter to be shown on there, I believe. And of course that site is as woke as woke can be. Every other trans related article I’ve seen there has pretty much had a consensus of ‘evil nasty TERFs are evil and nasty’ - but not this one.

I used to participate in a martial arts class, though always hated sparring (and would certainly never have fought), but without exception, and regardless of size, every single man I paired with for sparring or training would seriously pull his punches. They were all acutely aware of the damage they could potentially do me, and - I think crucially - were displaying sporting behaviour. They knew the field wasn't level, and they did everything they could to keep me safe from physical harm, and themselves free from the knowledge that they had harmed a very poorly matched opponent.

Even then, some of the pulled punches and kicks from the men hurt as much as the full-force combat I received from my regular partner, a woman with over 6 inches and 4 stone on me (no other female partners available, and I was happy to accept the disparity. She still regularly checked that I was ok to continue throughout a session, especially if she perceived that any particular technique would put me at a serious disadvantage). And guess what - the men still pulled their punches with her.

Regardless of dysphoria, why would any competitor of any sport choose to be so... unsporting? It's almost like they don't want the playing field to be fair.