Dawn Butler and biology

[HDDD]

Clip from GBM interview this morning.
twitter.com/JammersMinde/status/1229439480064610308
She said "Babies are born without sex"
Unless she said something after to clarify what she meant by this or backtracked then I guess this is her starting point....
Astounding. Labour have lost the plot, and me.

I think you touch on a Labour Party problem, you know, PermanentTemporary.

One of the current problems with Labour Party membership is that, far from having been taken over by the Hard Left, it's actually full of libertarians.

Ideally, those people (whose politics are private, individualist, with a very shallow grasp of class politics - and therefore very happy supporting Trans politics as 'progressive' politics,) should be in the Conservatives.

But I think the unaffordability of housing has sent them to Labour.

And they are massively different in politics and outlook to traditional Labour voters.

They're a lot more privileged, used to having their voices heard, and noisy, too.

Expelling unrepentant misogynists, theres a thought..so near all TRAs, and people who claim groups such as WPUK are 'hate groups' because they focus on the rights of women, all the lefty dudebros..half Labours membership surely, at least?! Yeah, will believe it when I see it

Oh, it's so awful.

I'm very sympathetic to solidarity with Trans people.

But this isn't about solidarity.

It's a 'gatekeeper' belief and a signifier of a set of priorities and beliefs.

And ... those priorities are pissing me off when people are freezing to death with no food.

All I want is for them not to piss all over the people who voted them into their jobs.

PermanentTemporary I just see it as pedalling back in face of protest, to be honest.

They meant every word of that pledge.

And, such is the echo-chamber within Labour, they went straight ahead with it.

And the MPs signed it.

They had no idea - no idea at all - of the outrage and disbelief it would provoke.

And that is a huge problem - in many, many levels.

How did they not know?

The roots of that lie in a poisonous culture in Labour, a horrifying lack of talent in the candidates, in those in charge of policy ... the answers to that question are, in part, the answers to Labour's devastating GE defeat.

They're all trying to row back now.

And, frankly, I don't think we should let them.

This needs to be out in the open.

So I say: shout louder Nadia Whittome. Shout loud and don't stop.

Good posts Cat. As well as outrage and disbelief, it has also provoked huge ridicule. I think ridicule might be more harmful to the cause and to the Labour party.

Libertarians in the Labour Party? Where can I read more about this?

Well, I think it's all fabulous.

Gender Disappointment will be a thing of the past.

Instead of parents, moments after the birth of their baby, saying "what have we got?" midwives will in future ask parents "what did you want?"

And the parents will say "boy" or "girl" and the midwife will say "congratulations, your wish has come true"

And no-one will say but this boy has a vagina, or this girl has a penis, because it won't be relevant.

And if they insist, they will be ... um ... shot?

Nah, surely not.

I wonder who's going to break the news to Dawn 'n Labour that the Guardian thinks that sex is biologically classifiable and measurable? In, ya know, funded scientific research?

www.theguardian.com/science/2020/feb/19/having-multiple-children-of-same-sex-does-not-run-in-family

Ideally, those people (whose politics are private, individualist, with a very shallow grasp of class politics - and therefore very happy supporting Trans politics as 'progressive' politics,) should be in the Conservatives.

Yes, this is something I've noticed for a number of years. Many people in the old leftist parties are really liberal progressives, and in my experience don't really understand the difference or know much about how that is different than the traditional leftist. They see it as the modern version of what used to exist.

But I would argue that something similar has happened with many Conservative parties. It's somewhat different in the US which has a different political tradition, but in countries like the UK and Canada conservatism wasn't primarily individualistic - that tended to belong to Liberal parties. Conservative parties also recognised social groupings and relations of classes, and supported things like the state intervening in important, large or foundational economic projects - protection of certain industries, for example, or large public infrastructure projects.

In recent years Conservative parties have also fallen prey to individualist thinking. It seems to be a matter of Conservative parties today being dominated by strong economic liberalism with somewhat more social conservatism, while leftist parties are the other way round, but both are essentially forms of neoliberalism.

GC 'hardcore' WPUK organisers /'ring leaders' to be identified & expelled

Well, this is certainly a chilling insight into the Stalinist tendencies of the modern Labour party. Forced reeducation for those who have just made a linguistic slip, expulsion for the hardcore GC ringleaders whose ideological crimes are beyond atonement. Does this cabaret of clowns realise most of the country is GC? That most of the country does not subscribe to their lunacy about giraffes and sexless babies and embryos with female brains and male genitals? The Stalinist purges and incoherent ideology will condemn Labour to political irrelevance. Thankfully.

it's actually full of libertarians.

Respectfully cat I don't think that is true at all. Libertarians believe in freedom of speech. Libertarians believe in a small state, low taxes. Libertarians do not believe in wealth redistribution, or attempts to enforce equality at the cost of liberty And Libertarians certainly do not believe in Stalinist purges, #no debate, cancel culture and sacking people for wrong think. The Labour party hasn't been taken over by Libertarians. It is in the grip of zealots and fanatics, Cultural Marxists who are on a Year Zero crusade and won't tolerate any dissent. This is why they were obliterated in the election and this is why they are unelectable.

Yes,?you're right, BovaryX.

Except that I just can't shake off this feeling about the strangeness of this sexual politics.

It's just so very, very amenable to libertarianism, isn't it?

It's just so very individualistic and privatised.

All of it. From trans issues to the incredible fetishisation of a weird notion of 'choice'.

I look at the discourse around sex work and I just find it baffling, for example.

The unconscious notion of the individual - and how that individual is formed within politics and operates within society - with which this politics works just seems ;to me, anyway,) to be fundamentally very, very different to old-style left-wing politics.

And incredibly flawed.

Maybe we need a new word for that weird combination of extreme libertarianism in regards to sex and political and philosophical authoritarianism. Well, other than "selfish".

Maybe I am just looking at 'liberal progressives'. 🤷‍♀️ But it seems to go further than that. Old-style liberals seemed to have a notion of various individuals sharing a common space, and the idea of some sort of balance of the rights of those sharing that space.

This politics seems founded on the idea that 'balance' is a morally-wrong, politically-wrong impediment and restriction on liberty and choice.

(I'm struggling to describe this!)

Anyway, here is probably not the place for these thoughts. I'm quite sure it doesn't pertain to the Dawn Butler's of the Labour Party. It's just a weird vibe I've picked up from fringe members and writing I've come across. 🤷‍♀️)

LOL @ 'selfish' and 'need new word'.

Yes. You're probably right, ProdigalKitten.

To get back on track ...

PermanentTemporary is right.

The group behind this pledge seem to be imploding - having severely undermined the credibility of those who signed this pledge.

I saw a kitty-fight in twitter between several. Quite amusing - on the level of ‘you are’ ‘NO you are!’ ‘No you’ ‘Nu-huuuuhhhh’. I expect 999 to be called at some point.

So, for a brief moment, as the consequence of that Metro interview, Dawn Butler enjoyed a rare moment of looking like the only sane person on the Labour front bench.

So what did Dawn do? Did she enjoy the glory? Did she revel in the fact that for once people weren't talking about how utterly batshit she was? Of course not. She got very very angry with the Metro for "misrepresenting" her! How dare a journalist make her look sane?

twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1229868930283556869

I saw that! Very amusing that she got his name wrong as she flounced.

'Except that I just can't shake off this feeling about the strangeness of this sexual politics.'

Yes agree.

Really enjoying the discussion of the parties/ and what their politics seems to consist of.

cat
Yes, it is all very bizarre. It was Lang, with her wisdom, who alerted me to queer theory. Then I read The Madness of Crowds and Douglas Murray is very insightful about the role of Judith Butler et al in all of this. Butler's use of impenetrable, arcane language is a deliberate attempt to divert attention from the incoherence of her ideas, as Douglas Murray points out. But the other thing which is made crystal clear by this abject spectacle of Labour's women twisting themselves into knots parroting this idiotic mantra is that it is the antithesis of individuality. They have been given a list of talking points and an incoherent ideology and they obediently trot it out. None of them have the bottle or integrity to challenge any of it. This is a demonstration of contemptible conformity. There is absolutely nothing individual about it. It is submission. And unfortunately, Labour is replete with craven politicos who are the opposite of what Douglas Murray describes as heroic people. What's even worse is many of them are women, eagerly chucking women's rights and the safeguarding of children straight under the identity politics bus......

As to the sex work is work nonsense, I think that is yet another example of the colonisation of modern culture by the porn industry

Or, both sex work is work and men are women if they say so = men most have whatever they want.

And subconsciously many people agree with that.

Frogs
Yes, I think that is a great point. The entire #no debate paradigm is a way of saying sit down and shut up. Many of the people these zealots wish to silence are women.