Doesn't self-ID only benefit non-genuine cases?

[UpfieldHatesWomen]

I'm trying to figure out if there are actually any benefits to self-ID at all for people with gender dysphoria. The arguments for self-ID are that it costs money, and it's 'humiliating' to have to present your case to a panel of experts. First of all, a GRC only costs £140. Doesn't seem like a staggering amount of money, if you follow the narrative that people will kill themselves in their masses without it. Are there other costs that I'm missing here? The NHS covers hormones and medical procedures in the UK. I also fail to see what's humiliating about a psychological/medical assessment, to see if you actually have gender dysphoria or whether you have a sissification/autogynephelia fetish. Unless, of course, you're never going to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, because you don't have it and simply get off on invading women's privacy/have a fetish etc. Self-ID benefits those who want to keep their penis - but if you have gender dysphoria, why would you want to keep your penis? TV propaganda such as the ITV series 'Butterfly' would have us believe that those with gender dysphoria hate their genitals so much they'll try to cut them off with pieces of broken glass. It seems like self-ID only benefits fetishists and misogynists, so why are politicians never challenged on how exactly self-ID is supposed to benefit transgender people, why are they so insistent on self-ID as the only possible route to trans rights? Are they just woefully ignorant about autogynephelia/transvestism/sissification etc? These fetishes are as old as the hills, why is everyone pretending they suddenly don't exist? Or for that matter, pretending that predatory men don't exist? Female politicians are subjected to the very worst kinds of misogyny on social media, so how can they be so incredibly naive about how misogynistic men and opportunists will use self-ID as a vendetta against women? It doesn't seem that self-ID actually help genuine cases, only those who would normally be refused a GRC because they have shown they're insincere/have other mental health problems/trolling etc.

Shhh. You're not allowed to talk sense. It gets people arrested.

Looks like getting a GRC is a long process:

"You need to have lived in your acquired gender for 2 years if applying through the standard route.

If you’re applying through the alternative route you need to have lived in your acquired gender for 6 years before 10 December 2014, or 16 December 2014 if you’re in Scotland."

Yanbu. You're exactly right. True gender dysphoria is not something to be taken lightly. If i go to the GP and say "i'm pregnant, i've done a home test", they don't just take my flipping word for it! It triggers an immediate round of invasive tests, appointments and questions. Same with most other conditions. This is something few male people will be aware of of course.

I think there is an argument around self-determination. No one else has to appear before a panel to decide if they are (-)-enough to be called a (-)... why single out trans people?

I dont agree with it, I have just heard the point made.

I don't consider two years very long to demonstrate a lifetime commitment to living as the opposite sex, and it prevents trolls/perverts etc self-IDing on a whim. If you could do it at the drop of a hat as self-ID would allow, every creep in town can gain access to women's changing rooms. We also have to wait two years before divorcing via separation in the UK. People have to go through all sorts of vetting before adopting a baby. In this case I think the wait is absolutely necessary.

I dont like self-id because I think thats too low a bar and does create a massive dangerous gap. However i can perfectly see why someone with gender dysphoria doesnt want dangerous surgery even if they dont like their genitals. Im not comfortable with forcing that on people either!

If trans people are significantly more likely to be unemployed or homeless, then £140 does become an issue.

Xanthangum it doesn't hold up as an argument. For example, I could claim I was bipolar, but if I wanted to get medication for that I'd have to undergo diagnosis by a doctor. Having to gain a diagnosis isn't humiliating.

Of course they do! It's a panel who decide whether you have ASD or ADHD! It'll be a team involved in diagnosing and treating most serious illnesses. And a team that sees a pregnant woman through each birth.

TRAs pretend they don't know any of this, of course. Don't fall for it.

If they need to pay for phychiastrist evaluation the cost is thousands. SomeOne on here a while back reported that going private was the only way to get the necessary diagnosis of gender dysmorphia

I think there is an argument around self-determination.

Not if it means they have a legally recognised sex of female (which is what happens with a GRC). So a man could self-identify as female, rape a woman and be sent straight to a female prison.

If it just means they want to say 'My name is Julie' and put on a dress, fine.

No one else has to appear before a panel to decide if they are (-)-enough to be called a (-)... why single out trans people?

Can you think of any other way in which people can gain legal recognition as something they are not?

Well, no, plenty of people do. Thousands of people go to tribunals who decide if they are disabled enough to be Disabled, or British enough to be citizens, or any number of x enough to be why. The adoption process is pretty brutal, one hears.

I don't agree with the process, but it's not a unique process.

Actually, they often do just take your word for it if you say you are pregnant (though maybe not with a first pregnancy?) And just put you in the system. I guess you’d only be discovered as a fraud at the first scan (or is there an earlier blood test?).

noblegiraffe as someone who's lived on the breadline for most of my life I don't buy that at all. If it's a matter of life or death (as the arguments go) you'd cobble the money together. Plus, if you were homeless a GRC would surely be the least of your problems.

Bit like the abortion I paid for privately then - because I couldn’t get an NHS appointment in time. Sucks to be a woman doesn’t it

Not round here they don't urine sample and bloods every time.

I don't see why you shouldn't have to jump through some hoops to change your legal status. There are all sorts of other legal hoops people have to jump through every day.

We don't allow other people to self-diagnose themselves with other conditions. When you look at it like that, it makes no sense at all.

There's the argument that, at the moment, because you have to be over 18 to get a grc, it isn't fair on children to have a different sex on documentation to their presented gender. Well, sorry, but children don't have much in the way of ID and I don't think anyone under 18 should be allowed to do something as drastic as change the sex on their birth certificate. We don't let non-adults do a range of other things that we deem them not to be ready for.

There's also the argument about NB people being discriminated against as they have to be legally either male or female. Sorry, but your sex or your sex and it needs to be documented. It has nothing to do with how you view your gender.

There's the argument that, at the moment, because you have to be over 18 to get a grc, it isn't fair on children to have a different sex on documentation to their presented gender.

Well, maybe we shouldn't be so keen on people having to present as a 'gender'. Let kids be kids and if boys want to wear dresses and long hair, and girls want to wear t-shirts and jeans and short hair, why shouldn't they?

Yes gender is just a set of social stereotypes - it has no more relevant to official documentation than what football team you support!

midgebabe did they say why they couldn't get a diagnosis on the NHS? I don't know what it's like for gender dysphoria, but I know that with autism a private diagnosis isn't taken seriously in the UK, because there's the notion that you are paying the doctor to say whatever you want.

There are few reductions for people on benefits: www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/how-to-apply

fee reductions

TheCuriousMonkey so that argument about the cost is complete BS then. They're better off than someone applying for a passport, for example, which costs £85 and you'll get no fee reduction for that.

Yes.

You know what, some people with disabilities have enormous problems proving their disability, particularly since Universal Credit was introduced.

There's a lot of ra ra ra celebrate happy mental health awareness propaganda going around right now. But if you actually have a serious mental health problem or a brain injury, trying to evidence that so that you can get benefits is unbelievably difficult and most people can only do it if they have a large amount of help.

And yet no one is calling for self-ID so that people can get universal credit.

There is simply no other area of interaction with the state, where we are not required to prove that what we say we are, is true.

People who call for self-ID are calling for a unique level of trust for one group, that we do not extend to any other group in our society, however vulnerable.

Guess why.

I can't just say I need a Motibilty car cos I want one and Bingo here's my new Toyota