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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottow verdict: Guilty

384 replies

DeployTheTut · 14/02/2020 10:46

I have no words. Reports from Joani Walsh and Maya Forstater at the Trial in St Albans

twitter.com/mforstater/status/1228261217212522497?s=21

twitter.com/joaniwalshi/status/1228259484801359872?s=21

OP posts:
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17
Amalfimamma · 14/02/2020 21:34

Kate did not set up multiple accounts to harass hayden.

The judgment even states that it doesn't matter if hayden wasn't tagged in or the object of the tweets.

People really should read judgements before professing to know it all.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 14/02/2020 21:35

The idea that anyone should go to jail for upsetting someone else on the internet is an absolute disgrace. The sentence being suspended in a particular case is obviously good for the person involved but does not in any way lessen how sinister it is that they could be sent to jail. For upsetting someone. And I'd say that even if the person demanding that their being upset result in legal consequences in this case wasn't sporting more red flags than an entire parade full of bunting.

littlbrowndog · 14/02/2020 21:38

Yeah Sharon it’s a shocker.

I particularly hate rape threats and that I should die in a grease fire

I hate being told I might get sexually assaulted by a baseball bat

All the fun of being a woman on SM

LangClegsInSpace · 14/02/2020 21:39

I've learnt that Stephanie Hayden has been before criminal courts on 11 occasions for 21 offences, and has spent six months in prison for obtaining property by deception.

littlbrowndog · 14/02/2020 21:40

I hate being told to die terf

I hate being told kill the terfs.

I hate that stuff.

Am probs guilty of hate crime

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 14/02/2020 21:40

It's grimly fascinating to see the misogynistic urge to punish women for failing to submit getting such an open airing. No surprises in terms of who feels that way though.

BoreOfWhabylon · 14/02/2020 21:41

Yes, and I'm glad of the outcome - not just in relation to this particular discussion, but in relation to harassment on SM in general. I can take it, but I worry about the younger generation.

If you want to see harassment on SM, I suggest you have a look at Hayden and creepy sidekick Harrop's output, especially in relation to Caroline Farrow.

Dolorabelle · 14/02/2020 21:46

Let's just consider whom we are asked to 'be kind' to: a serial litigator that is known to have appeared in Court at least 11 times to defend self from 20+ criminal charges, including fraud, and deception, and violent affray (assault with a golf club)*

And made jokes about being bear Ms Scottow's home playing golf.

I wonder if it's a case of Freud-style neurosis or projection. People overreact to the very things that they don't wish to admit are true about themselves. And they project this self-hatred outwards onto others, accusing others of the very thing they fear about themselves.

You know, like the 1980s television evangelists who preached family values, predicted hellfire and damnation on gay people, and ten were found paying male prostitutes.

Hypocrisy.

statsgeek1 · 14/02/2020 21:47

Reading the legislation wrt the misuse of communications act 2003 it seems apparent if reports in the Mail are to be believed that KS incriminated herself. It looks like during police interview the officers asked her questions with regards to the points to prove to make out the offence and for want of a better word she 'coughed' to them.

  1. That she used a public communications network. She used Twitter that isn't in dispute. In fact she appears to have aggravated this by creating two more accounts after agreeing to avoid contact. Possibly a classic error leading to indisputable intent.
  1. She used the network to cause annoyance or distress. It appears that her tweets were directed (unlike Harry's) and she appears to have admitted in interview that she knew they would 'get at' the complainant. I would say that a reasonable person would say that wanting to 'get at' someone could reasonably be interpreted as an intent to cause anxiety or annoyance.
  1. The message was construed as grossly offensive. Now, I am surprised the solicitor in concern did not chase this particular point. Is 'pig in a wig' or repeated misgendering grossly offensive? If the CPS were unable to prove this then I suspect it would have resulted in a different outcome but, without challenge the assumption must have been that it was grossly offensive.

As much as attacking the complainants history seemed a good ploy the judge was probably interested in this particular event. It would be similar to saying that anybody convicted of a historic of fence should not be allowed recourse to the law. I'm not sure most are really comfortable with that idea. Of course I understand that is not likely to be a prevailing opinion on here with regards to this case.

Support outside although apparently appreciative probably didn't help if reports were right that chants of pig in a wig and he's a man were heard. This may be misreported by the Mail, I don't know? Whatever you think of the complainant imagine substituting that chant for something considered derogatory but factually true about an ethnic minority coupled with a truthful statement about the colour of their skin? Perhaps a bit of an own goal but I'm sure KS liked it though.

As for Harryy, his tweets were lighter and not directed and on the face of it, his intentions were not criminal. Perhaps meant to poke fun at trans people but on the face of it they said more about him than transsexuals as a group. An experienced police officer would have done well to direct him to the Humber where he could easily placate his wish to be a fish and offer him some information about TDOR or invite him to an event to show him it 'is a thing'. The judge was sensible in his judgement though that the officer in concern over stepped the mark (probably through inexperience) and that we are not in a repeat of 1984. Of course he was also right to deny Harry the bigger prize of ripping up COP guidelines. The implications of that have far greater reach than trans people and the likely recognition that this could open the gates to open season on all minorities with a stated case to support decisions in this manner.

I don't personally see Harry getting anywhere with an appeal for this reason however if KS has a solicitor who argues what is grossly offensive successfully an appeal may work on a technicality. Due to her coughing in interview denial of the actions themselves are not in my opinion plausible. Also I don't think there will be much recourse as to an unusually strong punishment as a very small fine and costs is probably at the lower end of the scale.

It's all only an opinion but to me at least it makes sense of today's respective judgements.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 14/02/2020 21:48

Kate did not set up multiple accounts to harass hayden

No, but if you read the rest of my post, I said it has been said that multiple accounts have been set up (think I saw a post of Kate's herself that said there was a few accounts, but just to circumnavigate the Twitter rules on banning and nothing more nefarious than that? Correct me if I'm wrong but sure I saw that, maybe not those exact words)
So several accounts were set up if so.
If your accounts are discussing any individual in the public domain, you can't expect them to never come across them. You're not in your own private chit chat on the internet Confused
Anyone would be upset with seeing stuff constantly about them. Well, I know I would.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 14/02/2020 21:49

It appears that her tweets were directed (unlike Harry's)

I think that's the main difference between the two and the different outcomes.

littlbrowndog · 14/02/2020 21:50

Did the police not lose the tapes of her interview. ?

I heard that

Cascade220 · 14/02/2020 21:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 14/02/2020 21:54

I hate being told to die terf

I hate being told kill the terfs.

I hate that stuff.

Am probs guilty of hate crime

Cosigned!

LangClegsInSpace · 14/02/2020 21:55

as a slight aside - I note that Kate was charged in relation to the Communications Act 2003 which superseded the Telecommunications Act 1984. Facebook was founded in 2004, YouTube in 2005, Twitter in 2006. People are being prosecuted using outdated legislation that does not reflect the realties of social media in the 21st century.

I think this is central and we are going to see problems with this Act over and over again until it is amended.

In the olden days before the internet if you said something down the pub that was speech and if you put it in writing to an individual that was a written communication and if you distributed a written communication more broadly that was publishing.

The law has not kept up with our new habit of just chatting but doing it in writing on the internet. I would hate for there to be written evidence of every bullshit pronouncement I have made down the pub since the mid 80's yet more and more this is how we are socialising, this is how we are engaging with each other - on social media platforms, in writing.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 14/02/2020 21:56

Re the "pig in wig" stuff someone posted above, I will also note the misogyny at work there. Insult the appearance of a male person, if you are female, and apparently that's appalling. Insult the appearance of a female person, regardless of your sex, and that's just a regular day anywhere. If the police were to decide to treat comments on the appearance of female people with the same level of sensitivity and concern for our feelings they'd have to shut down half the internet.

Cascade220 · 14/02/2020 21:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Amalfimamma · 14/02/2020 21:57

Yes Kate set up accounts to circumnavigate a Twitter ban that ensued after she'd been mass reported but after her arrest she didn't mention nor contact hayden on sm.

Hayden has admitted in court that they went looking for Kate and knew all about her, her kids, pets and movements

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 14/02/2020 21:58

knew all about her, her kids, pets and movements

One could describe that as stalking, which is apparently much less serious than offending someone.

Cascade220 · 14/02/2020 21:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Amalfimamma · 14/02/2020 22:01

SpartacusLangClegicus

Dr em has a great thread with court notes. As does Maya. As do others. Kate had been as open as she was allowed to be seeing as she is still facing private prosecution by hayden.

Personally I think anyone who claims Kate brought this on herself is part and parcel of the problem. But then again I center women in my feminism

NoSharon · 14/02/2020 22:04

statsgeek1 good post. Not familiar with the second case of Harry though, so got a little lost half way through.

To me and I suspect to the judge, this wasn't an issue about trans. It was an issue of abuse (or whatever the charge was) on the internet. I'm sure they hear all manner of cases under that legislation and I'm glad that a conviction was handed down.

Our children are all growing up in a SM age. I am happy with the outcome today, though I have no interest in the trans/feminist aspect of it. It will mean that our children are safer and people can be convicted.

Dolorabelle · 14/02/2020 22:05

I hope a lot of you on here take some cautionary advice from her tale

ooooooo, I'm really scared.

Cascade220 · 14/02/2020 22:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dolorabelle · 14/02/2020 22:07

I think we should all raise complaints and ask the CPS to prosecute each & every time that we receive the "Die TERF" or "Suck my girldick" on Twitter ...

After all, these are tweets intended to annoy, hurt & harass.

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