14.02.20 Live updates on Harry and Kate’s cases HERE

[MrsSnippyPants]

I shall be glued to social media this morning and thought it might be useful to have a place where we can post updates as they come in so people need to follow just one thread.
Please post Twitter handles of anyone providing live updates as you find them.
@WeAreFairCop are saying it is likely the judgement will NOT be read out so they hope to get a copy and summarise and tweet after 10.30am

The judge said: “The claimants’ tweets were lawful and there was not the slightest risk that he would commit a criminal offence by continuing to tweet.”

“I find the combination of the police visiting the claimant’s place of work, and their subsequent statements in relation to the possibility of prosecution, were a disproportionate interference with the claimant’s right to freedom of expression because of their potential chilling effect.”

The judge added that the effect of the police turning up at Mr Miller's place of work "because of his political opinions must not be underestimated".

He continued: "To do so would be to undervalue a cardinal democratic freedom. In this country we have never had a Cheka, a Gestapo or a Stasi. We have never lived in an Orwellian society."

www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/humberside-police-condemned-judge-gestapo-3847378

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/14/transgender-tweet-police-acted-unlawfully

Sorry if you’ve got the links already! I’m just so excited at the daylight on this!! It’s in the telegraph too.

Professor Stock’s evidence demonstrates how quickly some involved in the transgender debate are prepared to accuse others with whom they disagree of showing hatred, or as being transphobic when they are not, but simply hold a different view.

Take he's, Labour Party

It sounds like a mixed result. The College of Policing can point the finger at Humberside Police and they in turn can throw PC Gul under the bus. But legal implications (which I don't fully understand) aside, I still think that for the judge to use the words 'Gestapo' and 'Stasi' in his ruling is immense.

Kate

*heed damn auto correct

A significant aspect with regards the early stages of Humberside Police investigation prior to being passed to PC Gul

75. The Crime Report has this entry for 5 January 2019: “Victim states that she has not been contacted by the suspect. She was informed that the suspect had made comments about the transgender community by another person. Victim states they would like the suspect speaking to but on further research the victim has herself been making derogatory comments on [REDACTED] about people who are making comments about transgender people.”

Can someone clarify - did the judge order Harry's NCHI be stricken, or will it remain?

As far as I know, it remains

Thanks Datun, I think that's possibly very important and perhaps deliberate on the part of the judge.

Actually, the more I think on this

The judge has ruled there was 'no evidence of hate' in Harry's tweets
But Harry's record retains the 'hate incident' as recorded by Humberside, because the guidelines were ruled acceptable.
The judge didn't rule that the hate incident should be stricken.

Judge: no hate here.
Humberside: record of hate remains on record
Judge: fine
I rule there was no hate. Yet I am allowing the record of hate to stand, with all its implications.

Has the judge deliberately created a conflict so that the contradictory situation of a citizen suffering a record of a hate incident despite a judge explicitly ruling there was no hate will now be escalated to a higher court?

Did this judge have the power to strike the NCHI after ruling there was no hate in Harry's case? If he had the power and didn't choose to exercise it that is curious.

He appears to have allowed an untenable situation to persist - a prior police record of hate continuing to supercede a judge's subsequent ruling of no hate.

Is that a tactical move on his part?

Is this on jeramy vine NOW

still think that for the judge to use the words 'Gestapo' and 'Stasi' in his ruling is immense.

Yes

Shame was she said about sex Ed is factually wrong - undermines her good points. Schools might do what she said on that but what’s going into law from September has no mandatory trans content and anyone can check that on gov.uk

Has the judge deliberately created a conflict so that the contradictory situation of a citizen suffering a record of a hate incident despite a judge explicitly ruling there was no hate will now be escalated to a higher court?

Possibly. As nauticant and others have pointed out, this is problematic because what if the next Harry or Harriet doesn't have the ability to pursue this through the courts? How can it be acceptable that someone has a police record when they haven't committed even a non crime?

Has the judge deliberately created a conflict so that the contradictory situation of a citizen suffering a record of a hate incident despite a judge explicitly ruling there was no hate will now be escalated to a higher court?

Did this judge have the power to strike the NCHI after ruling there was no hate in Harry's case? If he had the power and didn't choose to exercise it that is curious.

I agree & thought this tension was significant.
He ruled the guidance was 'lawful' so persumably it will require parliamentary (or higher court?) intervention to resolve

No my mistake it was the labour position on trans

Apologies haven't read everything as I'm at work but the way I read the judges comments were that the police could still use the 'hate incident non crime' thing would need to establish that there was actual 'hate' intended for them to use it. Did I misunderstand that?

Fionne Orlander's on Jeremy Vine R2 now.

Go Fionne

"You're a woman if you're born female"

Gotta love Fionne (and Dan).

I don't think so JustHereWithMyPopcorn. As I understand things there can still be non-crime hate incidents, automatically recorded so there might be no hate, and these can still have the potential to damage employment prospects of people.

This means that anyone else can find themselves in Miller's position if they say anything about gender identity ideology and it's reported to the Police.

Just read Ms B's statement for the first time above - my goodness, hyperbole much?!

Headline news on BBC1 now!

Top story on the BBC news at lunchtime, this will bring the issue to a much wider audience.

Kate from LGB Alliance was brilliant on R2 just now, as was Fionne.

R0wantrees. Well, little wonder that the judge called that the outer margins of rationality!!!

Whilst I agree that it sounds personal, the arguments are all identical to those put forward by anyone advocating for trans ideology.

It all seems rather odd to me. Why would a random transwoman take exception to Harry, of all people. There are hundreds of people who say far worse. What about the originator of the limerick?

I'm wondering if Harry was targeted because he's an ex-copper. What was it about him, specifically, that encouraged a lawsuit?

I caught a bit of this and Harry’s speech when I was in the supermarket and startled another shopper at the deli by saying ‘bastards’ at one thing then bumped into him again at the cheese counter as the Gestapo comment way made and I said ‘wahayyyyyy’.

I have to stop using my teensy headphones as I look like a complete loon.

Sadly I was reading the Kate shitshow on here as I walked to the gym, ‘fuckers’ ‘bastards’’absolute bollocks’.

How can it be acceptable that someone has a police record when they haven't committed even a non crime?

Police record intelligence.
Enhanced DBS (which was CRB) records allegations of offences not just convictions & stemmed from the investigation into Ian Huntley who was employed as a caretaker when he murdered Holly Wells & Jessicca Chapman.

With regards recording alleged 'Hate incidents', this came from the investigations into policing which followed the murder of Stephen Lawrence, in particular The Macpherson Report

Sarah Philimore, who is part of Fair Cop, gave a speech at Manchester 'Make More Noise'meeting last week which provides a great deal of relevent background:

'Hate Speech — what does it mean? What are the consequences for women? How can we protect our freedom to speak while at same time protect our own safety?'
medium.com/@SVPhillimore/hate-speech-why-our-current-laws-dont-work-and-cause-fear-and-what-must-change-b49c7b311533