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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

WHO are SOOO transphobic!!

106 replies

poshme · 13/02/2020 19:35

Apparently coronavirus is more severe for men than for women.

They're reporting this based on sex.
Good thing they're not members of the Labour Party.

I wonder if RLB would consider this to be a reasonable time to discuss sex or whether it would be deemed to be transphobic.

OP posts:
WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 14/02/2020 00:32

Uh huh. Tell me, would you use that phrase: "You people are obsessed it's ridiculous" to tell black people their activism was obsessive?
Don't conflate black people with trans rights.
I've been told this before on here, so just giving you the heads up. It's in no way comparable and highly insulting.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 14/02/2020 00:35

It must be ever so confusing for you Wotcha with that derail from someone else up thread so let’s get it back to the OP

Why though? It's not a sodding derail, just I questioned something lol.

bringincrazyback · 14/02/2020 00:36

So do sex-based differences matter or not?

They matter but so do a whole ton of other feminist issues which are routinely getting shoved to the side on this board.

NotBadConsidering · 14/02/2020 00:45

Why though? It's not a sodding derail, just I questioned something lol.

Ok, but it will turn into a derail if you keep talking about it.

So let’s get back to the OP. Can you answer my questions on sex-based differences in medical data? Which sex category should a transwoman with coronavirus virus be recorded in?

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 14/02/2020 01:00

Ok, but it will turn into a derail if you keep talking about it.So let’s get
back to the OP.

But why tho, why can't anyone answer lol

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 14/02/2020 01:02

So do sex-based differences matter or not?

They matter but so do a whole ton of other feminist issues which are routinely getting shoved to the side on this board

True

wellbehavedwomen · 14/02/2020 01:13

I didn't conflate trans rights and black people's rights - I think you misread it? I pointed out that language used against women defending their rights would, rightly, be regarded as abhorrent if used against black people's activism. Language that is othering and offensive shouldn't be used against any group simply trying to make their needs, views and disadvantage known.

There's no comparator with black people and trans people unless someone is saying they don't want a transman in a woman's loo. That is transphobic, yes, and the comparator holds there. But it doesn't with the opposite sex, because the objection is well founded, and in fact enshrined in law as being well founded. I imagine that was what you were challenged over? Racism is founded on absolutely nothing. Skin colour isn't relevant. Biological sex plainly is. It is not founded on nothing to object to males in women's spaces.

For clarity: I don't think trans people are obsessed any more than women are. I think there are two sets of directly colliding groups, and that third spaces - not dedicated to trans people, as that would be humiliating and othering in its own right, but thoughtfully set up to benefit pretty well everyone, would work. As an example, I think a new Changing Places loo should be created in larger public provision, by law, locked by radar key, and available only to disabled people. I then think that existing disabled provision made over into unisex - so non-binary, trans, and parents of opposite sexed kids - especially dads - have a nice loo to use (could even make it a nice family one, with a decent changing table etc). And religious people would be able to use their single sex provision, as would women who feel strongly. Transmen wouldn't feel (and sadly, sometimes be) unsafe in the men, or dysphoric in the women's. Nobody need fear they would be challenged in the opposite sexed loo, either. All needs could be met with creative solutions and goodwill and compromise, and we'd even be able to increase accessibility for disabled people, and increase overall public loo provision. Who loses, there? Really, who doesn't benefit? But we're being bullied, threatened and slurred, and the mere suggestion of that third space met with rage, as invalidating. Not going to make us feel more co-operative, that. Hard to say you'd feel safe in a single sex space with one of the little cherubs posing with knives and "POV if you're a T*RF in my mentions".

If this is a war, it hasn't come from women. Most of us spent years trying to seek compromise. And at this stage, if trans people don't see how many misogynists have eagerly leapt in the fray, who will not give a shiny shit about anything but attacking women with social approval, then really I don't know what to tell you. You think these people really approve of transwomen - let alone transmen? You think they are allies to anything but hating women, and being allowed to act on it? Truly? This is male supremacy in purest form. It's telling women they have no right to speak and that violence is justified, because provoked, if they do. That's literally the claim. For women saying we have the right to collectively organise, and to identify ourselves. And that is the right side of history? Somehow, I doubt that.

Finally, my experience on Mumsnet is that people can make comments, and other people can challenge them. As long as you are polite, and not bigoted (in the true sense of the term - they've always been really good at deleting comments that step over the line, and I agree with that - whoever they're aimed at) then that's fine.

NotBadConsidering · 14/02/2020 01:15

The point about the chairs thread was made by someone who wanted to use that as an example of how ridiculous everyone here is. The article that lead to that thread has been posted and the point of that thread has been explained.

So back to the OP:

How should we record sex in medical patients Wotcha?

And a new question: if no one in power who help determine legislation can even define or commit to sex-based differences, how can discussion around any issue proceed if no one wants to define “woman”?

wellbehavedwomen · 14/02/2020 01:23

Which sex category should a transwoman with coronavirus virus be recorded in?

Harms other men if they don't record it as male, if men are more affected. Right now there are few cases in the country so single outcomes will inform data more. Accurate biological data records matter enormously in clinical contexts.

Barracker · 14/02/2020 01:27

If females aren't distinguishable from males then female rights don't exist as distinguishable from male rights either.

So if you feel there are so many female issues you want to discuss, why not start a thread about them, but don't be surprised if no-one posts once it's clear that by 'female issues' you obviously mean issues common to the entire human race, male and female, and by 'female reproductive rights' you also mean rights of people with penises, and by 'female representation' you mean penises representing everything.

The board is wide open to you, post away on your favourite 'female' topics. But if your words are empty of meaning then your discussions will be meaningless too. You'll probably not find many of the women of this section interested in engaging in meaningless conversation. But I'm sure the many posters who pop up on threads like these to tell us we're obsessed and should just shut up, will be delighted to chat amongst themselves on the very particular rights of and how they haven't reached parity with the other

wellbehavedwomen · 14/02/2020 01:46

And a new question: if no one in power who help determine legislation can even define or commit to sex-based differences, how can discussion around any issue proceed if no one wants to define “woman”?

By defaulting back to male as the norm. Even more.

If you , you sure as shit can't defend what you can't define.

midgebabe · 14/02/2020 07:52

Sorry, could whatabout please list some feminist issues for which sex is not the root cause,,.either directly ( result of reproductive system,/ biology ) or indirectly ( result of stereotype assumptions )

Cascade220 · 14/02/2020 08:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AppleTree76 · 14/02/2020 08:41

@wellbehavedwomen
I am transgender so I am not going to sit and read stuff that's rubbish!

ThinEndoftheWedge · 14/02/2020 08:57

@wellbehavedwomen

Alternative body types means transwomen are just different women in the same way a woman with a mastectomy is, allegedly.

Having a double mastectomy is part of the female narrative - not all females have double mastectomies but all females know it is a possibility for them.

Having a penis is part of the male narrative. No females have penises.

There is no alternative biology. Open a dictionary and a biology book.

You othering women with mastectomies is misogynist, odious and cruel. You obviously don’t give a shit about women so why are you so keen to say transwomen are women?

We see you...

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 14/02/2020 09:08

You people are obsessed it's ridiculous

And yet here you are, Apple, telling us we're identifying women wrong.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 14/02/2020 09:27

I am transgender so I am not going to sit and read stuff that's rubbish!

^Winner of the 2019 Financial Times and McKinsey Business Book of the Year Award
Winner of the 2019 Royal Society Science Book Prize^

You say rubbish, we say potato. 🥔

AppleTree76 · 14/02/2020 09:43

This virus has killed 100s including children of people and you are all sat here with your phones and laptops discussing a trans debate! Shame on you all!

Cascade220 · 14/02/2020 09:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 14/02/2020 09:53

STOP DISCUSSIN' THIS!
YOU ARE ALL HORRIBLE!

again.

NotBadConsidering · 14/02/2020 09:55

This virus has killed 100s including children of people and you are all sat here with your phones and laptops discussing a trans debate! Shame on you all!

So given the serious of the situation, it seems appropriate to make sure that statistics are accurate doesn’t it? That demographics are accurate, because of their impact on morbidity and mortality? So sex matters when it really matters doesn’t it?

ErrolTheDragon · 14/02/2020 10:00

Accurate recording of sex with health data is essential.

It may turn out there's no significant difference in the particular case of coronavirus, but if there is then it may be key to understanding mechanisms and risk factors.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 14/02/2020 10:01

Unbelievable
This thread that is.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 14/02/2020 10:02

This virus has killed 100s including children of people and you are all sat here with your phones and laptops discussing a trans debate! Shame on you all!

Actually, we are discussing female v male biology and women’s rights. Perfect topics for mumsnet.

FloralBunting · 14/02/2020 10:03

Um...

"This is a really serious issue! How dare you discuss the particular relevance sex has in the severity of this disease!"

Perhaps we can all light a candle and do other very useful things instead?

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