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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Graham Lineham on Newsnight tonight!

302 replies

Destinysdaughter · 10/02/2020 21:53

Just saw this on Twitter. Should be interesting...

Graham Lineham on Newsnight tonight!
OP posts:
womanaf · 11/02/2020 00:51

SS: Women can speak for themselves.

Yes, SS, yet it was Glinner invited onto NN.

Funny that. 🤔

LangClegsInSpace · 11/02/2020 01:02

One bloke. Four threads. On a feminist forum.

That was a tough interview but I can think of loads of women who would have handled it better, because they'd have had all the facts at their fingertips, they would not be immediately on the backfoot trying to justify a nazi analogy (Oh the irony!), and most importantly they would have been advocating for all women, not just Kathleen Stock and Jane Clare Jones (no disrespect to either of them) or whichever other select few women Glinner identifies as representing.

But those women were not invited onto Newsnight because the story was nothing to do with women's rights or childrens rights or safeguarding or any other important things. The story was that a man has lost work. That's what was worth two high profile articles in the Sunday papers and a Newsnight interview.

Can you see what it is yet?

Ifionlyknewthenwhatiknownow3 · 11/02/2020 01:04

Thank you Graham, I think my partner might finally agree with what I've been trying to tell him now. You created Father Ted and therefore he was interested enough to listen to you.
Don't despair about tonight's interview, anyone could see how nervous you were at putting your head on the block and we all appreciate your selflessness in so doing.
You did manage to get some points across while the interviewer was drawing breath but no, you weren't given a fair chance to speak.

LangClegsInSpace · 11/02/2020 01:09

I have never seen a TRA subjected to such a confrontational interview.

Very good point

OccasionalKite · 11/02/2020 01:09

Bloke on Newsnight got attacked by a woman interviewer, for saying that he opposes medical experimenting on kids and that women deserve respect??!!

And he's the one accused of being a Nazi??!!
Down the rabbit hole, once again.

OccasionalKite · 11/02/2020 01:12

Why did the interviewer keep interrupting him? What is the point, to have someone on a programme, if the host just harangues and interrupts them?

Happityhap · 11/02/2020 01:13

InionEile, the average person isn't up to speed with all the newspeak, tho, so they still understand the real words.

bettybeans · 11/02/2020 01:23

I think he did very well in the circumstances and I’ve no doubt he fully expected that sort of going over, so for me it’s a huge thumbs up and thank you. Flowers

Are there women who could have gone on? Sure. Have they been asked? No. Would they be asked if he declined? No. Is it frustrating? Of course it is, but he’s not the problem here. I want information out there and if that’s how some of the opportunities arise then so be it. We don’t have time to sit around trying to wait for the system to be dismantled.

bettybeans · 11/02/2020 01:26

@kateandme he’s not compiling a database of conversion therapists ffs. He was putting together a list of therapists who use a more thorough form of assessment, rather than going with a straight up affirmation approach. Sensible really, given how many kids have other conditions that need to be considered and many parents of kids with gender issues don’t feel like they’re being properly assessed as co-morbidies.

Btw Pink News have now taken down that article. Assuming that’s where you might have seen it.

Aridane · 11/02/2020 01:27

A train wreck of an interview

ChattyLion · 11/02/2020 01:27

Not seen the interview but if the Newsnight interviewer doesn’t believe that children are being suggested to that they might be in the wrong body and that permanently changing their body can help (rather than seeking out a lot of therapy to ease their distress and sensitively investigating what else might be going on for that child..):

What about this from Childline: (sorry to recycle posts)

06/06/2019 09:18 ChattyLion

www.childline.org.uk/info-advice/your-feelings/sexual-identity/transgender-identity/

Unfortunately having just looked at their website front page, this seems consistent with their confusing, irresponsible and pathologising messaging.

Eg

FEELING CONFUSED ABOUT YOUR GENDER
When we’re born people have to record whether we’re a boy or a girl. This is usually based on seeing whether we have male or female sex organs.

Being transgender or trans is when someone feels that their gender identity is different from the gender they were given at birth. Trans people might:

feel like they’re in the ‘wrong body’ and that their genitals don’t match how they feel
want to change their clothes to better match the gender they identify with
be scared about telling people about how they feel.

Not everyone who’s trans wants to go from living as a boy to a girl (or the other way around).
But some trans people might want to change things about themselves, such as how they look or parts of their body.
It’s important to do what feels right for you’.

(the bolding at the end was mine.)
Telling kids ‘it’s important to do what you feel’ about changing parts of their body?!

Are you kidding me?
Childline is for CHILDREN. Young enough to need outside help and support. So since when did it advocate for children to ‘do what they feel’ about taking on permanent hormonal medical or surgical changes?

This is really dangerous.

wellbehavedwomen · 11/02/2020 01:27

The thing is, it's going to send more people off to google. As Maya Forstater's case did, and Harry Miller's will. People are going to find out about the 13 year old in Oxfordshire seeking judicial review over being expected to share with males identifying as girls on school trips, and being expected to compete against them in sport. They're going to discover how many whistleblowers left the Tavistock, and that sex protected spaces and provision are now wide open, in fact if not in law, to any male who chooses to identify as a woman.

I don't think the great British public are going to be down with any male who chooses to, being able to identify their way in to spaces where women are unclothed and vulnerable. Communal changing rooms, Youth Hostel dorms, women's refuges. And the trans lobby know this. Which is why so much violence is threatened, any time women try to meet to discuss the implications for us. I don't think the rape threats and death threats and actual assaults will go down terribly well with the general public.

This is why the focus has been on #NoDebate. And they can argue this is great for them all they like - they know full fine well a load of people will have been going away to look at what the fuck he was talking about. And they're going to find that he's not making it up.

The goal has been regulatory capture so complete, the law was in place, and the police ready to treat any dissent as hate crime. The fact is, they got very, very close. And that, too, is not a good look, to any neutral observer.

ChattyLion · 11/02/2020 01:43

Great post wellbehaved and thanks for all the links.

On the ‘born in the wrong body’ politicised suggestions to children from organisations that should know better:

The NSPCC website eating disorders sections have a totally different tone. Yes these are obviously different issues, but it clearly shows what happens to practical and evidence based support and advice for children when there is not a strong political lobby active behind that issue.

www.childline.org.uk/info-advice/your-feelings/eating-problems/

GeordieTerf · 11/02/2020 01:56

Before I woke up, I started doubling down on this issue, just like this interviewer did tonight. I truly believed that trans people were being oppressed. I was frustrated that I didn't understand the science. I thought that this was because I am bad at science, not because the science doesn't make any sense.

ChattyLion · 11/02/2020 02:17

Also why would Stonewall, turn down a chance to be interviewed by the BBC Newsnight to get their message out on this? I thought Stonewall were there to advocate for trans people?.Isn’t it literally their job, as a charity to represent the interests of this particular group of people, to be willing to represent them.?
I didn’t catch why she said Stonewall didn’t come on the programme.

wellbehavedwomen · 11/02/2020 02:24

@GeordieTerf, me too! I was a staunch trans ally. Believed that I must just not get it, and I'd try harder. I would stand shoulder to shoulder with my trans sisters against the patriarchy!

And then the patriarchy turned up in lippy, calling itself intersectional feminism.

ArranUpsideDown · 11/02/2020 02:29

loads of women who would have handled it better...not just Kathleen Stock and Jane Clare Jones (no disrespect to either of them) or whichever other select few women Glinner identifies as representing.

Glinner: We need to keep chipping away at it. Get Docstockk on to talk about academic freedom. Get janeclarejones on to talk about women’s dignity. Get michelemooreEd on to talk about kids. Get sharrond62 on to talk about sport.

twitter.com/Glinner/status/1227014089953742853?s=20

Graham Lineham on Newsnight tonight!
Ritascornershop · 11/02/2020 03:06

What an odd “interview”. She was so confrontational, and ill-informed about what kids are being told. I thought Graham did well, and appreciate him speaking on this. I think it’s fine he seemed nervous, when people are more slick it doesn’t make them more believable.

Glinner · 11/02/2020 03:23

I'm slightly annoyed the more I think about it. They still don't take it entirely seriously.

MoleSmokes · 11/02/2020 03:39

ChattyLion - there was no reason given why Stonewall didn't take up the invitation to do their job.

Just watched it on iPlayer.

I thought GL did very well and got across an amazing number of points in a short interview.

SS did her job challenging him and I thought he coped really well.

He was never defensive, he moved the conversation on neatly and kept on plugging the point that the BBC need to get some women on to talk about this.

IMHO it is not just the voices of women academics and famous-names like Sharron Davies that need amplifying. The testimony of women like Lucy McDonagh, co-founder of the Deptford People Project, would drop an uncomfortable truth-bomb on the living room carpet and open people's eyes:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203804-The-Deptford-People-Project-and-the-impact-of-self-ID-and-transactivism-on-working-class-women?msgid=91060909

Quote:

Here is the text of Deptford People's Project's original powerful statement (no longer available on Twitter):

Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford. We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary. See below

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area.

You must understand we are not graduate activists or or women’s rights campaigners. We are community workers and our concerns regarding changes to the GRA come from a lifetime of personal experience and having worked with some of the most marginalise people in our area.

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse...

domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison,rehab,homelessness and austerity.

The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services.Some have and will access all of these services.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class goldsmith (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking. They do this without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.

As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) members of the community are and have always been excepted and protected by community organisations.

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self id. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class people.

We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.

When we are being verbally abused and called fascists because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

when sharing information about this event and attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education. Thank you x

Thanks to PencilsInSpace for the above.

MoleSmokes · 11/02/2020 03:41

Oops! Cross posted - didn't see you there Glinner! Smile

bettybeans · 11/02/2020 03:45

She didn’t take it seriously, Glinner. She asked you about several topics she clearly hasn’t researched and when she found herself on the end of answers she didn’t like and didn’t know how to handle, she swiftly moved you on. It was insincere and performative. She was reliant on an opportunity to try and attack the person rather than the subject.

It doesn’t reflect badly on you. It reflects badly on her. She compromised her professionalism to have a go, and that’s lame any day of the week.

Winesalot · 11/02/2020 04:05

Thank you Glinner for persisting in talking. The more people from different perspectives keep talking about this the broader the impact.

Yes, they could have and should be inviting women to interviews. On the other hand, your presence opens up new audiences that would sadly, would not be pulled in otherwise.

wellbehavedwomen · 11/02/2020 04:51

@Glinner we have so much to lose here - but you don't. On the contrary; you have everything to gain by silence. Yet still you stand by us, and not your own best interests, purely because you feel it's the right thing to do. Thank you.

borntobequiet · 11/02/2020 05:42

Is that the same Sarah Smith who sometimes presents the Today prog? If so she’s bloody rude on there too, interrupting and talking over people. How it’s called an interview I don’t know, seeing as they’re never allowed to finish what they’re trying to say.