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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

All the best to Kate Scottow in court tomorrow

518 replies

BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted · 05/02/2020 19:28

@BustedWench: we haven’t forgotten. I have a prior commitment tomorrow but fully intend to be there to support you on Friday,

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Retrofitted · 08/02/2020 21:51

How can you be harassed by someone who has actively sought to prevent all contact?

When someone creates fresh accounts after being banned, and carries on postIng about another person, by name, on a public platform, where anyone not specifically blocked (or simply not logged in) can read, share, and circulate, that’s not avoiding contact is it?

That’s just talking about someone when they’re not directly in the conversation, whilst knowing that they will hear all about it one way or another, as will literally anyone else who cares to look, or has it shared to them.

LangClegsInSpace · 08/02/2020 22:02

Yes, 'could potentially'.

It's still not wise to speculate without evidence because this individual appears to enjoy taking legal action against people.

It's also not necessary to speculate because there's enough other astonishing revelations coming out of this case of far worse wrong doing on the part of the complainant, for which there is actual evidence.

In the absence of evidence this speculation just adds to the perpetual benefit bashing narrative that disabled people have to face and will still have to face long after this unimportant individual fades into obscurity. It doesn't achieve anything else.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 08/02/2020 23:04

I'm so disappointed that the comments have been turned off in the Daily Mail article

If it's an ongoing/current court case newspaper comments are always turned off -

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 09/02/2020 09:20

Comments are open on Thursdays article, just not Fridays (there are 278 of them):

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7975577/amp/Mother-two-39-appears-court-accused-calling-transgender-woman-pig-wig.html

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 09/02/2020 09:37

"However, "Self-ID" in terms of disability is a VERY different kettle of fish to "Self-ID" in terms of the GRA 2004 and Equality Act 2010. In order to obtain protections under the Equality Act 2010 objective evidence is required. It is not sufficient to "self declare" that one "feels disabled"."

It is worth noting in this context that the fragrant subject of this thread posted on Reddit about how easy it is to obtain a GRC.

In this context it should be understood that to get a GRC one must show that one has been living in the new gender role for a period of two years

"proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender for the required time"

in this context there were photos posted by Miss Hayden less than two years before the GRC was granted (and boasted about on Twitter) appearing to show a male gender role.

However as there is no objective definition of living as a female for someone who is biologically male it turns out we already do have self certification of.gender, it's just one that's easier for people like our subject here than perhaps those with more limited resources.

Disability on the other hand has to have objective evidence against a certain standard. It's still a matter of interpretation obviously, but at least there is some kind of reference, whereas as far as I'm aware nobody has defined 'female gender role' in the context of a 40+ year old biological male.

midgebabe · 09/02/2020 09:50

Isn't self I'd disabled more about not forcing people to identify as disabled? That's how dh thinks it works ?...many people with DH condition do identify as disabled...helps with job interviews and allowances for eg hospital appts and such, but DH doesn't see himself as disabled

Rather the opposite of what we have here where woman are forced to identify as something

wellbehavedwomen · 09/02/2020 13:45

How can you be harassed by someone who has actively sought to prevent all contact?

When someone creates fresh accounts after being banned, and carries on postIng about another person, by name, on a public platform, where anyone not specifically blocked (or simply not logged in) can read, share, and circulate, that’s not avoiding contact is it?

Blocking someone, so they can't read your tweets and you can't read theirs, is the definition of avoiding contact. There would, self-evidently, be no direct contact at all unless one side actively sought that contact. It doesn't mean the other isn't allowed contact with anyone else, or must remain silent.

That’s just talking about someone when they’re not directly in the conversation, whilst knowing that they will hear all about it one way or another, as will literally anyone else who cares to look, or has it shared to them.

I wouldn't know what someone said about me if the mutual dislike was sufficient for mutual blocks, because I'd block for a reason, not to make a flouncy point, and my friends have sufficient maturity and common sense not to take pleasure in shit-stirring. And there is no right, in life or in law, not to be talked about. There is a right not to be harassed, and a right not to be defamed. You can't be harassed if you have to seek out the discussion. Every gossip site on the internet would be liable, were that the law.

The prosecution, according to the reports, argue Kate created multiple accounts to circumvent a block. Yet now it seems that she created those accounts to avoid Twitter rules, not a block from Hayden, and in fact had blocked Hayden herself. Hayden's confusion in believing retweets were visible despite a block does not make that true: it is not true. Nobody here is arguing that it is true. Hayden sought the tweets out; they could never have been seen otherwise.

This is not complex or esoteric. It's very simple. If you don't want contact, and don't want to know what is being said about you, don't take active steps to find out.

OldCrone · 09/02/2020 14:05

as far as I'm aware nobody has defined 'female gender role' in the context of a 40+ year old biological male.

I think they tried to, and realised it could only be based on sexist stereotypes which would obviously be seen as regressive by most people. That was the point at which they should have realised that the GRA should be scrapped because it makes no sense.

wellbehavedwomen · 09/02/2020 16:13

IIRC that was part of Jess Phillips's arguments in favour of reforming the GRA - that it's sexist to assume a gender role carries certain behaviours and traits, so they shouldn't ask for that at all.

Quite how you can marry that up with a belief that someone can have a gender identity that doesn't align with their biological sex, I have no idea.

OldCrone · 09/02/2020 16:22

Quite how you can marry that up with a belief that someone can have a gender identity that doesn't align with their biological sex, I have no idea.

I think it then all just comes down to 'feelings', so a man is a woman if he says he 'feels like a woman'.

But I think people like Jess Phillips have just switched their brains off on this issue, so as not to have to face up to the fact that they've capitulated to a violent and threatening male-dominated movement out of fear.

Melioration · 09/02/2020 16:46

How can one have the ‘feelings’ without stereotypes of feelings- it is a never ending loop.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 09/02/2020 23:12

Going back to the blocking on twitter, isn’t there a saying that eavesdroppers only hear bad things about themselves?

If you don’t want to know, stop listening at doors.

LangClegsInSpace · 11/02/2020 22:09

Solidarity Kate, I can't imagine how tough this week is for you Flowers

LangClegsInSpace · 11/02/2020 22:26

I don't understand how this case passed the CPS's public interest test.

There's a bullshit law that says it's illegal to annoy someone on the internet. It's not used often because otherwise we'd all be inside. It seems to be a law of convenience for when you need to shut someone up but they can't be done for a proper crime.

Why was it in the public interest for the CPS to bring this case?

Fairenuff · 12/02/2020 09:42

I wonder if the recent cases that have yet to produce a verdict have anything to do with the new regulations coming into power regarding the policing of social media sites. Or is it just a coincidence?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51446665

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2020 10:11

It seems to be a law of convenience for when you need to shut someone up but they can't be done for a proper crime.

Doesn't it just. And when you look at who the case involves, it makes a mockery of the police and justice system.

Dreamprincess · 12/02/2020 12:30

Due to their many errors in the past, such as institutional racism, ignoring child abuse, falling hook, line and sinker for "Nick", treatment of Cliff Richard - the list is endless - it seems to me that the police and CPS are now trying to get ahead of the game with regard to trans issues.

In other words, lets pick off a few low hanging fruit such as Harry and Kate so we are the right side of history and cannot be accused of ignoring a potential problem. Trouble is, the police have gone far too far the other way in their actions and their blatant re-branding of their cars and uniforms to support one particular cause is nauseating.

What they seem to fail to understand is that if they put their minds and efforts into stopping (rather than ignoring) low-level criminal offending, all members of our society would benefit. Secondly the most vulnerable members of our society are our children, so any "campaigning" on the Police's part should be aimed at them.

terfsandwich · 12/02/2020 22:53

I went for a wander through the kiwi orchard and noted with interest that apparently the subject of our inquiry has posted 51 tweets about Glinner over the past few days. Sounds a little... obsessive? Harassy?

BettyFloop · 13/02/2020 18:51

Fingers crossed for tomorrow Kate Flowers Gin

Lordfrontpaw · 13/02/2020 19:02

After today’s Labour shitfest I just can’t takes no more!

ScreamingBeans · 13/02/2020 20:21

Good luck Kate.

MindTheMinotaur · 13/02/2020 22:07

Good luck Kate. Will be thinking of you and checking for updates.

OhHolyJesus · 13/02/2020 22:07

All I want for Valentines Day is some bloody good news from court(s).

C'mon this has to be it. Maya can be the hat trick.

Good luck to all and of course thinking of you Kate ahead of tomorrow. I can't be there in person but you have my support. So many of us are with you. I hope you feel it.

LangClegsInSpace · 13/02/2020 22:31

Thinking of you tonight Kate and I'll be on tenterhooks tomorrow FlowersWine

ArranUpsideDown · 13/02/2020 23:00

With these wretched pledges and Femi_Sorry having taken leave of the boundaries of his competence and knowledge - does anyone else have the jitters about the rulings tomorrow?

We badly need the judiciary to have our backs in this anti-woman, anti-safeguarding environment.