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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My complaint to Sussex Police re their handling of protest at WPUK Brighton Meeting

668 replies

WomanBornNotWorn · 03/02/2020 11:01

I was at the WPUK meeting in Brighton in September.

It was targeted by a group of protestors rather bigger than Saturday's London bunch - well, that one was just a little posy ...

They kicked and punched the windows for several hours, while Julie Bindel's video shows police officers staring into space:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7497869/Anger-crowd-transgender-rights-protesters-intimidate-meeting-womens-rights-group.html

I submitted a complaint that the officers allowed it to go on for a long time (watch the WPUK videos on You Tube and you'll hear it).

I've now received the detailed response from the police:

"Following your complaint, made regarding the actions of Sussex Police in dealing with a protest at a Woman’s Place UK meeting in Brighton on 23 September 2019, I have now completed my enquiries.

In your complaint you explained that you were unhappy that the officers who attended the incident at the Woman’s Place meeting took no action to prevent the disruption from protesters and stood by while protesters were shouting and banging on the windows of where the meeting was taking place.

Chief Inspector Sproston was the Public Order Silver Commander during the event, he held full responsibility for the actions of the staff who reported to him and he provided a report following the event.

The Bronze Commander was Inspector Lovell who was on the ground with the Public Order teams, he provided me with an account of the event.

Chief Inspector Sproston was fully aware of the problem caused by protestors at a previous WPUK meeting in the city and the requirements for public order policing. He and Inspector Lovell held a briefing prior to the event and formulated a plan to manage the protest against WPUK using the Protest Liaison Team (PLT).

The agreed venue, which WPUK had arranged for the meeting, was at the Odeon cinema. This afforded complete security with no access to the protestors once inside the venue. However on the evening of the event, the Odeon management declined to allow WPUK to hold their meeting there and the venue was changed. WPUK organisers had already identified a secondary location which Sussex Police were unaware of until they were informed of the venue changed half an hour before the meeting was due to start.

Inspector Lovell deployed his staff to the new venue at the BMECP Centre in Fleet Street using the same plan as was intended at the Odeon. Protestors were already at the venue and a public order team were sent to the front of the building. There were also four security staff employed by WPUK at the front, controlling entry to the building. The initial approach had been to use the PLT to try and engage with the protestors and they deployed as soon as they arrived at the new venue.

As the meeting progressed, part of the protest group went to the rear of the premises where the windows to the meeting room were at ground level. The protestors began banging on the windows and the PLT asked them to stop. When the banging escalated Inspector Lovell sent two Public Order Teams to form a cordon in front of the windows.

The protestors continued shouting and chanting at the front and the rear of the premises. Residents from the flats above threw water down onto the protestors, which also covered some of the Police Officers, but it could not be ascertained exactly which flat it had come from.

Chief Inspector Sproston had considered a number of things when making his assessment. The venue had been moved, with no notice, to a location that police had not been able to carry out a reconnaissance at. Their public order assessment had been for the Odeon cinema which had one manageable entrance and resources available to deal with that. Chief Inspector Sproston is confident that had there been a consultation on the new site, it would not have been recommended by police.

WPUK have the right to hold a meeting and not be subject to serious disorder, damage or disruption to the community. The protestors have the right to protest under articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Human Rights Act. Freedom of Expression under article 10 is applicable to the expression of views that may shock, disturb or offend the deeply held beliefs of others. This does however, have to be balanced against the rights of WPUK.

Chief Inspector Sproston considered imposing section 14 of the Public Order Act 1986 as the banging on the windows could have been interpreted as being intended to intimidate WPUK members with a view to compelling them not to hold their meeting, which they had a right to do.

Section 14 would have allowed the senior officer present to stipulate the location, duration and numbers of people allowed to protest. There was no suitable place to direct the protestors to as any place which would not have affected the venue of the meeting, would have meant the protestors would have been completely out of sight of the venue. This would have effectively stopped the protest and not just restricted its effect which is not in the spirit of articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Humans Rights Act. In turn this would have not stood up to scrutiny or challenge.

Although the protestors were loud, the meeting did go ahead and there were no reports of serious disorder, serious damage to property or disruption to the life of the community.

Public nuisance under common law was also considered. However this offence constitutes injury, loss or damage to the public in general. Undoubtedly the protestors were a nuisance by their presence but they did not commit this offence.

Inspector Lovell reported that there was no effort on behalf of the protestors to damage or enter the building. No one was prevented from entering or exiting the building and the meeting was able to go ahead.
There were 6 phone calls to police between 18:30 and 21:00, four from people inside the venue and two from third parties who were not in attendance.

The first caller was at 18:37 expressing concerns over people outside shouting. During the call they told the call taker that police were arriving on scene.

The second caller was at 19:15 concerned about the banging on windows. During the call they advised the call taker that police were now inside the building and helping.

The next two callers were also from inside the venue who expressed concerns about the banging on windows. One was at 19:24 and another at 19:27 who said that she was scared to leave the venue due to protestors smashing on the glass.

The last two callers were from third parties who had been in contact with people inside the venue. They were alerting the police to the banging on windows. One call was at 20:32 and the other at 20:54

There was only one call from a local resident at 21:20 complaining about the noise from the protestors. However Sussex Police were aware and monitoring the social media posts.

I have viewed Body Worn Video footage from several officers at the event. I have also viewed the video footage obtained by the Public Order Evidence Gathering Team (EGT).

At 19:09 the EGT footage showed a small group at the rear of the building with a few of the protestors banging on windows with their hands. The PLT were speaking with the protestors.

At 19:27 the EGT footage showed a larger group gathering at the rear and many of them were banging on the windows with their hands. The public order teams formed a cordon in front of the windows and the officers were physically pushing the protestors away from the building in order to prevent a Breach of the Peace.

At 19:30 BWV footage showed the officers getting between the protestors and the building to form the cordon, preventing the protestors from banging on the windows. Although some banging could be heard in the background, it was unclear where this was coming from. The footage continued until 20:20 and showed the officers with their backs against the building. The protestors formed a line in front of the police, with their backs to them whilst they continued to shout and chant.

At 21:09 BWV footage showed a protestor telling the group to go to the front of the building as the meeting was coming to an end. She told the protestors make sure they filmed the police and got their ID numbers.

At 21:11 BWV footage showed the police cordon between the protestors and the building, leaving a clear walkway for the attendees to leave the meeting. The protestors continued shouting until everyone had left the building.

The protestors were creating a lot of noise and their chants were not only against WPUK, they included obscenities aimed at the police. The footage supports the reports made by Chief Inspector Sproston and Inspector Lovell. There was no violence and no serious disorder.

Using the core principles, and legal framework set out by the College of Policing in their Authorised Professional Practice, I am satisfied that the event was policed lawfully, proportionately and appropriately.

The Professional Standards Department will retain a copy of your complaint and the local resolution outcome."

OP posts:
SomeDyke · 03/02/2020 18:49

"...have travelled to their home city to hold a meeting about trans rights and how to do away with them."
Interesting choice of words there. Particularly the implication that there are 'outside' agitators, that's a good one!

Perhaps someone needs to think about the differences between banging on window frames, say, as opposed to banging on windows.....

Most of us dykes can, thankfully, see that it isn't 6 of one and half a dozen of the other when one group is having a meeting, and the other group is outside banging on the windows. But always illuminating to see exactly how far some people will try to go and pretend it is.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 03/02/2020 18:49

The venue discussion is just further derailment and pointless.

It really is. Protests and meetings have happened in various places.

Most places are at least 50% women, so women meeting really shouldn't even raise an eyebrow.

I did smile at the idea that travelling to Tunbridge Wells from Brighton would just be so much hassle that the protestors wouldn't bother though.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2020 18:49

Anyone can request a judicial review. I've no interest in looking up the case of someone who has fallen foul of the law.

Yes of course, there has never been a single miscarriage of justice in the history of the UK legal system. The police have never been at fault.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2020 18:51

This is a bit like what happened here after the first Brighton event, Truth, a Brighton based lesbian who used to post here and had a similar outlook to Saph made up a story about attendees being abusive to protestors. No evidence of course and I'm pretty sure she later conceded she'd misunderstood.

Oh yes, wonder what happened to her?

Floisme · 03/02/2020 18:55

If that's the same thread I'm thinking of, it was the one that first galvanised me into posting after lurking for years. I will always be grateful to that poster.

Floisme · 03/02/2020 18:57

Actually it might have been a different thread but there was definitely a Brighton theme and the poster kept disappearing to ice a cake.

Cascade220 · 03/02/2020 18:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SapphosRock · 03/02/2020 18:59

Truthontrial Well I was at both meetings and I know what was discussed (and the videos are online I believe) so denying there was talk about trans rights and how they shouldn't exist is strange

Floisme · 03/02/2020 19:04

No I don't think it was Rats, although I remember her too.
This is going to annoy me now!

EverardDigby · 03/02/2020 19:07

It's quite normal for groups to have fringe meetings at party conferences, there were probably 10s if not 100s at Labour Party conference.

TruthOnTrial · 03/02/2020 19:12

Trans rights do exist.

Its an issue to assume greater rights over others though. Thats just shit behaviour.

I don't get your point, at all. The women of Brighton need to fuck off to somewhere else to talk together?

To make a gathering to discuss their female concerns and contraventions to them is so much of a threat to some that police are required to make detailed, sufficiently ahead of event scheduling as to avoid the meeting being disrupted which would be infringement of anyone's rights to meet and speak safely.

None of whats gone before is defensible.

No its not ok to defend the level of intimidation to women, yet here you are justifying abuse to women.

Well noone got physically hurt so its ok line. Thats prehistoric thinking.

Why do you go to these meetings exactly, seems most odd given your attitude towards violence against women.

TruthOnTrial · 03/02/2020 19:13

Perhaps labour were discussing vinegar tax (its directly relevant to the price of chips)

LangClegsInSpace · 03/02/2020 19:18

Well I was at both meetings and I know what was discussed (and the videos are online I believe) so denying there was talk about trans rights and how they shouldn't exist is strange

Yes, the videos are all online here:

www.youtube.com/channel/UCzFqsUqDzyXEQMJVy42NwUw/videos

Can you post the one(s) that 'talk about trans rights and how they shouldn't exist' please? It would be helpful to know exactly what we're talking about.

SapphosRock · 03/02/2020 19:21

Why did I go to the meetings? I like Julie Bindel and Kathleen Stock and I live nearby. I was also interested in hearing different opinions about the application of the EA exemptions, as this part of the legislation is ambiguous. And always slightly star struck by being in the same meeting as Julie Burchill.

Doesn't mean I can't appreciate the reasons it was protested.

Floisme · 03/02/2020 19:23

Well to be fair, you've done a bit more than saying you understand why it was protested, although I'm for the most part amused, especially at the idea that Brighton women should travel to Tunbridge Wells to discuss their rights.

SapphosRock · 03/02/2020 19:27

Here you go @LangClegsInSpace - the first speaker from the 2018 meeting, how the GRA shouldn't have been passed and how trans women are not women:

TruthOnTrial · 03/02/2020 19:31

Doesn't mean I can't appreciate the reasons it was protested.

Now thats disingenuous of what you've done all over this yhreadt.

You have avoided, dodged and derailed, defended abuse against women and not stood by women in their rights atall.

How shallow to go there because of the gc celebs. Bleeeuurgh,

...and if you'd had your way it wouldn't have been close to you would it.

I'd be interested in hearing the EA discussions, but again that all derails from the point of the thread and your claims throughout that it was held to remove trans rights; which bit, where?

thehorseandhisboy · 03/02/2020 19:31

I didn't go to the Brighton meeting but have been to several WPUK meetings, the videos of the speakers are all freely available on line.

Neither in those or the one Langcleg links to can I find ANY mention of desire or intention to take rights away from trans people.

None at all.

Protecting women's rights, yes, that's WPUK's explicitly stated aim.

TruthOnTrial · 03/02/2020 19:34

Spo you found something two years ago, not relative to the current meeting aggressors discussion.

What should she have done in that speech, not mentioned her concerns?

Not speak about whats happened?

What do we call that exactly. Is that what your for sapos

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2020 19:35

^No I don't think it was Rats, although I remember her too.
This is going to annoy me now!^

Debbie666

Floisme · 03/02/2020 19:38

Nope not Debbie either. But I do appreciate your help Grin

SophocIestheFox · 03/02/2020 19:43

Was it Daimbars?

littlbrowndog · 03/02/2020 19:46

Bespin ?

PaleBlueMoonlight · 03/02/2020 20:10

Women are getting together to discuss the intense pressure trans activists are putting on the legislature in a multitude of ways to change the law (GRA and Equalities Act) and remove rights that all women have. In addition these women want to discuss the societal pressure that those activists are, in the meantime, putting on public and private bodies (as well as individuals) to stop then from recognising that women’s rights exist and/or to stop them from applying them.

On the flip side, some women discussing this think that the GRA should be abolished. This would not remove the rights of those that have already benefited from it, but would prevent anyone (not just transgender people) from taking advantage of it in the future. Those wishing to repeal think that the rights being wronged by the Act (the right to marry and the right to take a pension) have now been resolved through same sex marriage and equalisation of the pension age. The counter argument is that it is a human right to be legally recognised/socially regarded as the sex that you not and that therefore taking away the GRA removes the human rights of those that might otherwise have taken advantage of it. Of course, it remains unclear from the activists perspective whether everyone has the human right to be regarded as the sex they are not or whether only certain classes of people have that right.

MsMcWibble · 03/02/2020 20:12

SapphosRock - What absolute nonsense is this? Brighton is MY home town - along with many other women. Every inch of it has memories for me. The only time I have been truly scared there was at the previous WPUK meeting where I was pointed out by protesters and screamed at as I tried to go home.
How absolutely dare you suggest that women should not meet in my home town to discuss what directly affects us. How dare you?
BTW - I was also at Hastings - you know - where there was the bomb threat.

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