Purity spirals

[RoyalCorgi]

This is a brilliant piece by Gavin Haynes, tied to a radio programme, about the concept of "purity spirals" - the idea that's taken hold in certain groups that you have to continually demonstrate your ethical credentials. The example he gives is anti-racism in the knitting world, but obviously it can apply equally trans activism. Anyone who isn't 100% pure is regarded as morally beyond the pale. He makes historical analogies with Maoism, amongst other things. Fascinating - and spot on.

unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/

I don’t claim to be the first person to make this link but it’s the Red Guards and the Cultural Revolution all over again, isn’t it? Although (thankfully) less violence, for now.

Fascinating post meuca

My initial reaction to that kind of drama is to sigh and roll my eyes at the ridiculousness of it. I suppose though it's incredibly stressful for the people in that circle or make a living from crafting. I agree there should be space for people who just want to create for the love of it.

There's a lot I could go into about the online crafting world, to be honest. It's fascinating as a space that is at least 90% female, as you really see the shit side of female socialisation bubble up (being kind is more important than being honest, any male who enters the space is put on a pedestal, there's a LOT of performative incompetence).

Identity politics took hold in a big way a couple of years ago; one website has done this "Who We Are" series where contributors share their stories. Some of these are indeed relevant to sewing - petite women, pregnant women, people sewing clothes after a masectomy etc. Others are just an excuse to show off their woke credentials; "Who We Are: Sewing While Bisexual" was a particular low.

Oh, YY to the idolotry of men in knitting. Super annoying.

I heard this the bad feeling and virtue signalling over KNITTING!

I agree Mumsnet is mostly refreshingly free of the purity spirals, genuflecting and witch hunts on other social media platforms.

Apart from the "identify as disabled" vs "diagnosed as disabled" concept, which is tackled stridently and vehemently by proponents on here. I'd like to explore this issue rigorously and critically without being accused of wrong think and wrongspeak and having to personally prove my oppression points that qualify me to have a valid opinion.

Someone will be along shortly I'm sure to attack me, which will helpfully prove my point.

Now when I see people say "Mumsnet is full of untrammeled ableism" I take it with a grain of salt, in the same vein as when I see "Mumsnet is full of transphobia".

Also “Mumsnet is full of dog whistle racists” - as currently being proclaimed on the ‘sad about Brexit’ thread. I ignore that sort of stuff as it’s that sort of alienating talk that brought us Brexit in the first place. There is racism in the world - for sure. And on MN of course. But the idea that it’s endemic and that mentioning the challenges of managing immigration = racist is just nonsense.

Agree with the bizarre reaction to men in knitting, it's wierd. I looked up Nathan Taylor's book blurb when this all kicked off and I'm paraphrasing, but it all a bit "how mens manly math brains are ideal for knitting"

There's a serious amount of money in Instagram style knitting now though so given everything it's hard not to suspect that's at the bottom of it. To knit a popular designers jumper in the suggested hand dyed yarns in one of the xxl sizes came to nearly £1k in wool if I remember rightly and there does seem to be a lot of people with an astonishing amount of disposable income.

Identity politics, fandom, tribalism, partisanship, whatever you call it these days there is no question it has been vigorously promoted by commercial media interests because conflict sells.

Agree re: cost @FlaviaAlbiaWantsLangClegBack and the demonisation of acrylic yarn doesn't help.
On reflection the acrylic/ natural yarns thing was also a bit and I suspect also disproportionately affected older women on lower incomes (like my own DM who wouldn't have been able to afford to knit as a hobby if she'd had to only use wool, cotton or silk).
I really didn't belong in that group, looking back.

. 'I looked up Nathan Taylor's book blurb when this all kicked off and I'm paraphrasing, but it all a bit "how mens manly math brains are ideal for knitting'

It really is. I wanted to support Nathan so I thought about buying this for ds1 but the sheer naked sexism of the male brain stuff would have annoyed ds as much as it annoys me.

I’ve always thought knitting was the perfect refutation of the idea that women are no good at spatial stuff. You take something that is effectively 1D and turn it into something 2D and then 3D using some sort of coding. Classic computer modelling geek stuff but your grandma’s been doing it with her eyes shut for generations. Unsurprising to see that being appropriated as male

My cousin has been the wonder of her family for years because of her skill in precision spatial judgment.
She is the reason we have always known that men are better at spatial relationships was bogus sexist porky pies.

It’s on iplayer now www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000d70h

I've just started reading this and realise this is exactly what's happened in the cloth sling community. Esp around trans and Labour.

This was such a good article, been thinking about it for days - must set aside time to listen to the doc.

I was reminded of it last night, when I went to Cordelia Fine giving the Bernal lecture at Birkbeck. She was excellent, and during Q&A a young BAME woman asked a question about diversity in science, and actual led used the word cis (in the process lumping women in with white men as the dominant class - thanks for that).

After the answer, the woman chairing the Q&A said as a joke "well, after that, we should have a question from a MAN" and pointed to the grey haired, very obviously male man with his hand up. She then got flustered, went bright red, panicked as she realised she'd made the cardinal sin of assuming his gender.

This woman is the head of biological sciences for the university - if anyone should know biological reality it should be her. And yet, here she was, at the height of her career and knowledge, getting flustered self policing her language because she accidentally called a man a bloody man.

Interesting, Toot - did you get any indication from Cordelia Fine about her views on gender ID?

Not really @royalcorgi - it was the great unsaid in the room. She referred to how politicised and difficult conversations are around the subject, but positioned herself away from it, by saying her interest is the biologically of the brain and how that relates to gender as a social construct, as a distinct thing to gender identity. She basically said aside from size, it is remarkable how similar male and female brains are, and differences are small and don't correlate to assumptions about stereotypical characteristics of maleness and womenness.

I got the impression that everyone is walking on eggshells in academia and she made a bit pitch for scientific robustness which may have been considered controversial but seemed like a statement of the bleeding obvious. If it was controversial then it is a sign of how fucked up academia is at the moment...

She was very impressive and down to earth, obviously has an ENORMOUS brain herself.

Oh god hearing about the man-idolising just makes it worse! I do like to see a man knit and sew, because I welcome any man standing up to stereotypes - but then the stereotype that men are better at spatial/coding stuff negates that! Grrrr.

My DS is a big coder and I remember him being fascinated with a book about knitting in a shop and saying "it's just like coding". Yes and knitting came first - and coding itself was initially based on how textile patterns were woven into jacquard. Both women and men have been involved in these things for centuries.

One reason women have been so successful and innovative in this arena is that much like writing, a patriarchal society cant stop you from doing it. You can do it at home, as a cottage industry and you don't need a big investment.

everyone using a pineapple in their handle (fandom in joke apparently) was racist cos one of the characters is black & pineapples meant they were supporting slavery or something

That was Psych, wasn’t it?

A real gentle, fun escapist comedy. The pineapple thing was because One appears in every show... somewhere. And it became a kind of Where’s Wally game.

How depressing that that’s been appropriated by these SJWs.

I agree with the coding similarities, but coding is my job so I would

I think you're spot on with this LadyMadder One reason women have been so successful and innovative in this arena is that much like writing, a patriarchal society cant stop you from doing it. You can do it at home, as a cottage industry and you don't need a big investment.

I've started listening to the programme, and I'm just baffled by the compulsion to bring race into everything.

I think it was part of the dramatisation, but there was a quote early on about feeling unsafe in knitting spaces due to a lack of diversity ... Like wtf.... What exactly is unsafe about a knitting community?! I can understand feeling a little out of place if you are from a BAME background, but unsafe?

Sorry, getting annoyed by the guy talking about critical race theory.
Everywhere you go and everywhere you look, you will find online racism.
He seems to say there is a problem because knitting is exclusively white and therefore that means BAME people will automatically feel uncomfortable in these spaces..... Umm...... Hang on, if you live in a country that is predominantly white, why does it come as a surprise that most activities, hobbies, and groups that you encouter will also be predominantly white?

Are there examples of open hostility or an overt sense of being unwelcome in a knitting group that is predominantly white? From what little I know, members are usually falling over themselves to welcome those from any sort of minority background.

It seems like what most of the world understands as racism has been obscured by fancy schmancy theories to mean something completely different these days.

It doesn't make sense - either it's exclusively white or it's not. If BAME people are there then it's not!

AFAIK there's nothing particularly white about the history of knitting. It probably has its origins in the middle east and there are old knitted artefacts from Egypt and Islamic cultures. But of course (as culture and technology does) it spread, and many white cultures have longstanding knitting traditions and designs too.

So you could argue they are all guilty of cultural appropriation anyway and shouldn't be knitting at all (if you were daft). All of it's just bollocks and cultural cringe for the sake of it. Agree with PP who said that these people are not bothered about actual injustices. It's just about getting one over on everyone else with your righteousness.