Purity spirals

[RoyalCorgi]

This is a brilliant piece by Gavin Haynes, tied to a radio programme, about the concept of "purity spirals" - the idea that's taken hold in certain groups that you have to continually demonstrate your ethical credentials. The example he gives is anti-racism in the knitting world, but obviously it can apply equally trans activism. Anyone who isn't 100% pure is regarded as morally beyond the pale. He makes historical analogies with Maoism, amongst other things. Fascinating - and spot on.

unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/

As a crafter I wandered into the whole knitting thing by accident, but with gender/ gender identity rather than race. It was truly bizarre. It was a UK FB group which outlawed the greeting "Ladies" in posts, despite 99.9% of the makes posted being worn by women,or their children, or grandchildren, or spouses and clearly an overwhelmingly female membership. We were instructed by admins only to use gender neutral language, and not doing so would earn a ban, and so would dissent from this position. We were instructed to leave if we didn't like it. I left pretty quickly after that, I really couldn't square the message with the nature of the membership and frankly it looked a lot like bullying of bewildered older women.

I clicked through to this, very interesting about a hoax to get clearly absurb papers published...and did. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievance_studies_affair

Interesting thought experiment - do we do similar on here? Ostracise anyone who doesn't agree with the GC viewpoint?

I don't think we're in a purity spiral. We're just saying woman = adult human female.

Less bonkers spiral and more holding the line of sanity.

Purity spirals take people from seeking righteousness to competitive self righteousness, I think. It is a terrible thing to see people become addicted to taking umbrage, like a drug they get high on.

RoyalCorgi

What a fascinating article. I think the Robespierre analogy is a very interesting one. Those wielding the axe in the increasingly intolerant SJW movement should consider his fate... As for knitting? Who knew it could be such a cauldron for fanatical online purges?

Finally, just as the guillotine had eventually come for Robespierre, Nathan Taylor, who had founded the #Diversknitty movement, found himself at its sharp end. When Taylor tried to inject positivity back into Diversknitty, his moral authority burnt up inside minutes. A poem he’d written asking knitters to cool it (“With genuine SOLEM-KNITTY/I beg you, stop the enmity”) was in turn interpreted as a blatant act of white supremacy. When the mob finally came for him, he had a nervous breakdown. Yet even here, he was accused of malingering, his suicidal hospitalisation described online as a ‘white centring’ event

The knitting thing is insane - I fell down that rabbit hole last year, when I was considering starting a small online business selling knitted things. It wasn’t the only thing that put me off, but it was a factor for sure.

There’s an element - with the knitters - of money making too. One of the chief woke people has an Etsy business which I looked at out of curiosity - her profile basically said ‘buy from me because I’m disadvantaged’ (that’s not the term she used, but I can’t remember if she described herself as a woman of color, or an indigenous woman or BIPOC or something else - you get the point though I hope). But it was selling her stuff on the merits of who had made it rather than on its own merits, IYSWIM.

Interesting thought experiment - do we do similar on here? Ostracise anyone who doesn't agree with the GC viewpoint?

Generally no. We argue with them which is not the same.

There also isn't a single "GC" viewpoint. The posters here have a variety of views within the spectrum of GC. Over the past few years, the consensus on certain aspects may have changed but you don't tend to see policing such as you can't be "GC" if you don't think "X".

There are attempts to police who people "support" due to other viewpoints they may hold or associations they may have. However, here, there are plenty of people here with the disposition to say I think "X" is an arse but I still agree with them on "Y"

So I don't think there's a purity spiral but I think it's healthy to be aware of the risks of falling into one or into groupthink.

This article summarises very well exactly a thing I'd been saying was a problem on the Left - now I have a name for it!

I've been part of FB groups on the Left and they almost all disintegrate because everyone has to be morally pure, no one can accidentally leave anyone or anything out without being shouted down as a bigot, 'you're erasing/silencing X or Y group!' rather than perhaps being gently corrected, or someone adding a supportive comment or info about X or Y group. No wonder the right wing is winning.

When I pointed out on one of these groups that the RW was not spending time arguing over representation and intersectionality (whilst saying it is obviously important to be deal with), it took literally 3 replies for someone to call me a facist sigh Admittedly, that person was a bit of an outlier and no one supported them, but it was indicative.

BackToBack you might like this from Helen Pluckrose on the grievance studies hoax, and postmodernism in general:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy7O-xgN3hw

When I pointed out on one of these groups that the RW was not spending time arguing over representation and intersectionality (whilst saying it is obviously important to be deal with), it took literally 3 replies for someone to call me a facist sigh Admittedly, that person was a bit of an outlier and no one supported them, but it was indicative

The tossing around of sloppy phrases like far right and fascist to describe anyone who doesn't submit to the increasingly bizarre and fanatical dictates of the new authoritarians? It's actually offensive. To anyone with a single clue what these words mean. The hysteria and hyperbole at the epicenter of this ideology render its assertions absurd and its analysis laughably incoherent.

Spudlet yes the money thing was troubling, both the targeting of successful designers or companies and the script that people recited to make themselves 'safe' to buy from.

The script and the posting of pictures of books just felt so staged.

I saw this too and I think it's a really good attempt to understand the whole phenomenon. The witch-hunting analogy is very accurate IMO. You can also see it in totalitarian states where everyone has to spot and report other people's failings to keep themselves safe.

Social media is making it happen in online communities but it's not limited to them.

I don't think it is happening with MN's feminism chat (though agree it always needs to be guarded against) because there are different views and it doesn't have that vicious "there is only one way to think" phenomenon where anyone who disagrees is simply shamed by shouting. Disagreeing, and backing that up with evidence, arguments and logical thought, is debate and that's what do can do here.

I've had my mind changed on various issues via MN feminism boards but because the debate and discussion has allowed me to gain more evidence and viewpoints and clarify what I think, to myself. Not because I've been shamed into pursuing one single party line IYSWIM. And if that had happened I wouldn't be here any more, because I hate that and prefer actual debate.

What always amazes is the people who perpetrate the shaming and accusations to the nth degree - how can they not see what they're doing or have a sense of humour about such ridiculousness?

And "cultural appropriation" is the most annoying and stupid reason to get your knockers in a twist IMO! Yes, in some cases there can be insensitive use of a minority culture that is offensive and can be pointed out. That doesn't mean all adoption of or involvement with culture from anyone else is a bad thing – there is practically no part of anyone's culture that wasn't influenced and appropriated from elsewhere. That's actually part of the definition of culture, the way it spreads and is copied and passed around.

It's a good example of a thing that can turn into a purity spiral - because of course you can spot "cultural appropriation" absolutely anywhere you look, and so it lacks the "upper limit" as described. People can just go on endlessly pointing the finger at other people in order to feel superior.

knickers :o

Twisted knockers definitely getting more into medical emergency territory, I feel

I am curious to know what is it specifically about knitting which has attracted this bizarre internecine zealotry? I confess I know nothing about it, but it seems an unlikely hobby for fanatics. Or is the fanaticism widespread and the knitting is merely an example?

I think it’s that Bovary I have a friend who is involved in the fandom of a TV show which recently fell out with itself after someone decided everyone using a pineapple in their handle (fandom in joke apparently) was racist cos one of the characters is black & pineapples meant they were supporting slavery or something (no me either!)

Place making. I can see this happening politically and want to understand it better. I definitely think the ‘permanent’ and very widely shareable aspect of social media makes this more of a thing.

Crafting of all kinds can be intensely political, and as a PP said it has a dual appeal - to both old-school home-maker traditionalists and the modern craft guerilla, stick it to the man, right-on maker movement types. So they come intop conflict but also the right-on types can get into People's Front of Judea-style internal strife as well.

I do a LOT of creative crafty stuff and always have, but I don't take part in online craft communities - just can't be doing with it all.

I think it’s that Bovary I have a friend who is involved in the fandom of a TV show which recently fell out with itself after someone decided everyone using a pineapple in their handle (fandom in joke apparently) was racist cos one of the characters is black & pineapples meant they were supporting slavery or something (no me either!)

Kit
The Robespierre analogy is so relevant because this kind of behaviour is indicative of a kind of mass hysteria, accelerating towards implosion. Surely this febrile zeal is unsustainable? Those wielding the axe should consider Robespierre's fate ....

where anyone who disagrees is simply shamed by shouting. Disagreeing, and backing that up with evidence, arguments and logical thought, is debate and that's what do can do here

I think that is true and one of the things I like about this forum is the tolerance for people with diverse political views Lang was very generous to me when I first came to this board and even though we had different political opinions, we could discuss the election and agree and disagree with respect, not rancor. That makes this special because so many other online spaces are absolutely intolerant of dissenting voices.

Completely agree Bovary Robespierre is a perfect analogy. Can only assume they didbt study the French Revolution.

It’s not & that’s what worries me, it’s not sustainable and the backlash will sweep away many hard won rights and freedoms in its wake

I think some people do join MN threads sometimes and try to do that moral shaming one-upmanship thing - and generally someone disagrees with them and explains why, or points out why that's not an argument. That's something I love about MN.

Whereas when purity spiralling is at its worst, anyone doing that gets kowtowed to, because everyone is scared to be the bigot or non-pure person.

Crafting of all kinds can be intensely political, and as a PP said it has a dual appeal - to both old-school home-maker traditionalists and the modern craft guerilla, stick it to the man, right-on maker movement types. So they come intop conflict but also the right-on types can get into People's Front of Judea-style internal strife as well

LadyMadder
That's very interesting and makes sense. Blimey, I would never have imagined an online knitting community could be so fraught with Oliver Cromwell esque tension! Really fascinating thread

I think that’s one of the strengths of an anonymous forum - anonymity isn’t an unmitigated positive but it can help people to feel braver about saying no to more outlandish demands. Whereas if your name and business - possibly one that is your livelihood - are under threat, it would take a lot of bravery to stand against the crowd I think. With the knitters it wasn’t even those who said the ‘wrong’ thing that were being mobbed, it was anyone who was insufficiently vocal with the ‘right’ thing. Shades of nobody wanting to be the first to stop applauding for Stalin...!