Keira Bell

[MarieIVanArkleStinks]

I'm not sure whether this issue has been debated on this board, as I haven't been posting/reading here for a few weeks. But the story is here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/22/former-transgender-patient-tells-court-sex-change-clinic-putting/

and here:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926675/Witness-court-battle-against-gender-clinic-reveals-happened-cry-help.html

TLDR: The Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, which runs the UK's only gender identity development service (GIDS) for children, is being sued over concerns that youngsters are being given "experimental treatment" without adequate assessments.

Keira's view as to her symptoms, and lack of warning about them:

I had symptoms similar to the menopause when a woman's hormones drop. I had hot flushes, I found it difficult to sleep, my sex drive disappeared. I was given calcium tablets because my bones weakened.

Keira claims she was not warned by the Tavistock therapists of the dreadful symptoms ahead. 'My female hormones had been flushing through my body and, suddenly, a curtain came down on them. It felt pretty bad,' she recalls.

And as to now:

'The treatment needs to change so that it does not put young people, like me, on a torturous and unnecessary path that is life-changing. I feel like I've been lied to because it did not make me feel any better.

As she struggles to return to life as a woman, she adds, with feeling: 'I don't want any more kids to suffer like me.

That poor woman. This is unconscionable, and the mere idea of the opposite side of this view even having a case to answer in court is so frightening it seems to be bordering on dystopia. In the meantime (and not directly applicable to FtoM transition) I know someone who is currently experiencing hideous, debilitating menopausal symptoms, and is unable to get HRT. There just isn't any available. Instead, her GP has prescribed her with ... Prozac.

I'm curious to know whether MtoF transitioners are experiencing the same issue.

There is no victim here, so I'm not victim blaming

So a girl who profoundly regrets having her breasts amputated at 20 and taking hormones for years that might cause infertility is not a victim? What ethical doctor does this?

Just to be clear about the nature of the amputation.

These were healthy body parts.

Someone on the Transgender UK subreddit called Keira a ‘Scumbag’. They are so scared of ‘gatekeeping’ they give no shits about what it’s actually like to have endured an unnecessary amputation.

"She may have been 16 when she started puberty blockers, but should would have been at least 18 before going onto testosterone or having any surgery."

She says she was on blockers for a year and then went on to testosterone injections. She would have been 17.

She did not go through any kind of puberty. She did not mature in the way that other people who go through puberty mature.

"The doctors need your consent before any surgery, they tell you the risks before any surgery,"

She went through what she has described as an early menopause. She also asserts that she was not told by the clinic about the symptoms she was to go through.

I had symptoms similar to the menopause when a woman's hormones drop. I had hot flushes, I found it difficult to sleep, my sex drive disappeared. I was given calcium tablets because my bones weakened.'

It seems incredible, but Keira claims she was not warned by the Tavistock therapists of the dreadful symptoms ahead. 'My female hormones had been flushing through my body and, suddenly, a curtain came down on them. It felt pretty bad,

"The doctors need your consent before any surgery, they tell you the risks before any surgery, you have to sign your consent before any surgery. If she wasn't ready or didn't feel it was the right thing for her then she shouldn't have gone through with it. There is no victim here,"

I went in one night and was operated on the next day by a top consultant. My breasts were gone.

'No one at the clinic sat me down beforehand and said: 'Are you certain you want this?' It was all very quick.'

Dear lord Oopster. Either you are offering up a completely uninformed opinion, without having read any of the facts. Or you are calling this young woman a liar.

Victoria Derbyshire now talking about this case

And she is asking great questions

You've really got to be a piece of work to be spending time trying to undermine and scorn a young woman challenging a system which gave her life changing drugs and unnecessary surgery without due diligence. I mean, I can see that oopster is doing it to shore up their own decisions and the currently abusive status quo because that's what this religion requires, so I should probably feel compassion for oopster, but as they can't seem to manage it, and indeed accept that they are 'cruel' in their arguments here, I think I will hold my compassion back for the woman in the situation that oopster feels needs a kicking for heresy.

Polly Carmichael came across as rather slippery, to my mind.

The two questions that I would like answers to are firstly, where are the results of your study?

And secondly, how many children on puberty blockers, at 11 or 12, then go onto cross sex hormones? Because it's no good hiding behind the fact that cross sex hormones aren't given at 12 or 13, if the decision is made essentially at 12 or 13.

I'm pretty certain Polly Carmichael, or certainly someone at the Tavistock, admitted that puberty blockers 'cement' gender dysphoria. It's a complete lie to pretend that none of this informed consent happens until they are older.

I’ll be honest

I dont have a massive issue with adults who transition, i can see that some people feel it will help them

I have a massive issue with putting CHILDREN on this path, giving CHILDREN drugs the full effects of which haven’t been tested without full counseling and in some cases outright lying or fudging of the truth

I cannot impress to everyone on this thread how much of an issue i have with people saying that a 15/16 year old needs to take responsibility for the life changing decisions they made when they have been let down by every PROFESSIONAL adult around them

I know children who wont put their hand up in an exam hall cos they are too embarrassed...i can abso-fucking-lutely guarantee those children would be too embarrassed to ask any questions in a consultation

Thats not their fault...thats the fault of grown ups who have forgotten what its like to be children

Took me a while to type that...im easily distracted

What really struck me was that the first question Victoria Derbyshire asked was how they can tell this is what the child really wants. It’s all about wants, not needs, no suggestion of what might be best for that child. Just what do they want and what does that future look like for them.

Indeed rogdmum.

I'm desperate for a conversation with women like Carmichael, who are at the coalface of what children are saying, to explain why she thinks they all have gender dysphoria. What is it trying to do for them?

We all know how our bodies and minds do things to protect us. Allergic reactions, irrational fears, etc. It's all with good intentions.

What is the brain's intention behind these girls with gender dysphoria? We have a pretty good idea of many of the reasons on here. But I want that on the table. So that people can see whether or not double mastectomies and hysterectomies are a proportional and appropriate treatment.

Instead of, you know, 'coming out', waving a rainbow flag.

Dodopatrol I'm arguing for more support for these kids, that means more resources so these kinds of things don't happen, but no system is perfect, no system can ever be perfect, it can only be as good as we can possibly make it. Assuming Keira was 100% honest with the clinic, and the right procedures were followed, then no one can really be at fault here. There will be reviews carried out and what to do for the best in future as with all medical treatment. I've walked out of gic appointments and literally felt so down I've felt like walking into traffic, but thankfully I didn't. These places are stretched to the max and not given the support they need and that leads to the patients suffering as a consequence. It's like telling someone with an eating disorder that their condition isn't serious enough for treatment, so then that person that still needs help ends up getting worse. There needs to be more local places so that kids and adults can sit down and discuss the issues in a relaxed atmosphere.

Datun I'm telling you how it's been for me with every surgery bar one (when I was about 8 or 9) that I've ever had. The risks were explained to me and I had to sign a consent form. I even had to sign a consent form when I went in after a heart attack to get my vein declogged.

I am sorry that this young woman has gone through this, but is she not allowed to make her own decisions? She made the choice based on her circumstances and has come to regret it, its that simple. I don't know what she's going to do about it now but I wish her well, but this is another reason why we need open discussion about this without being pulled in any one direction.

Assuming Keira was 100% honest with the clinic, and the right procedures were followed, then no one can really be at fault here.

What age would you think '100% honesty' wouldn't cut the mustard oopster?

14? 9? 5?

What's the minimum age you would feel the person was more the architect of their own misfortune and less a victim of circumstance?

the right procedures were followed,

You cannot give informed consent for a drug when the information around it is unclear, or when it’s negative affects are not discussed with you.

The judge who granted the judicial review sees that there is a query as to whether ‘the right procedures were followed’ - why can’t you see it?

Datun I'm telling you how it's been for me

Oh, I thought you were telling me how it was for Kiera.

Datun when I was going through the system and attending a local supper group and online groups. The one thing that kept coming up was to be totally honest with the psychiatrists. I went through charring cross gic which had, maybe still does, a horrible reputation in trans circles, and the the temptation was to just tell them what they wanted to hear. It was a running joke that you should turn up in your best "Laura Ashley" frock and pearls to appointments, abs that would go double for the transwomen.

Hopefully, all the facts should come out in the court case and improvements can be made to the service, but you need to understand the fear in the trans community that some people would be happier if these services just disappeared completely.

A "gender critical" group is bringing the legal action. Oh they don't have any kind of agenda they're using this young woman for are they.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/03/02/puberty-blockers-families-speak-out-nhs-treatment-high-court-judicial-review-gids-tavistock/

Thanks for your answer, Oopster.

This whole ideology is so confusing.

You say that 'Assuming Keira was 100% honest with the clinic, no one can really be at fault here.'

So, a female child turns up at a clinic or at her school and says she's a boy. Should people believe her? Is she a boy?

She is surgically altered to resemble a boy. Is she now a boy?

She desists. Was she briefly a boy, then (whilst saying so), or never a boy? Was she 'dishonest' in saying she was a boy, or misled?

Is she now a man, despite saying she isn't? Should people now believe her?

Yeah, we get that there's a culture of trying to manipulate professionals to get the desired outcome. Obviously if that's what grown adults think is justifiable behaviour, that's one thing.

But it's clearly clouding a lot of people's judgement because they think it's normal and acceptable to manipulate medics into signing off huge interventions, so they overlay that kind of mindset onto the youngsters sucked into the movement with no understanding or acknowledgement of the different issues in play, like development etc.

I'm finding it almost impossible to give consideration to an amorphous 'trans community's fear' given you seem so happy to toss youngsters in the acceptable damage pile.

How on earth does anyone square 'be totally honest' with 'but try to convince everyone you're the opposite sex'?

Please, for the love of mike, pick a different term. Just BE transgender. If you were born male and transitioned surgically and socially, you are a male who has transitioned surgically and socially. Good luck and a happy life to you, but you aren't female; you aren't the same sex as a woman.

A "gender critical" group is bringing the legal action. Oh they don't have any kind of agenda they're using this young woman for are they.

Oh my god! You actually think the propaganda of pink news is real! Fucking hell.

Look at the other articles by the same Author ‘Vix Parsons’ - it’s the clearest agenda you ever will see - no way this person is an actual, qualified journalist:

www.pinknews.co.uk/author/vic/