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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keira Bell

313 replies

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 25/01/2020 10:40

I'm not sure whether this issue has been debated on this board, as I haven't been posting/reading here for a few weeks. But the story is here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/22/former-transgender-patient-tells-court-sex-change-clinic-putting/

and here:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926675/Witness-court-battle-against-gender-clinic-reveals-happened-cry-help.html

TLDR: The Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, which runs the UK's only gender identity development service (GIDS) for children, is being sued over concerns that youngsters are being given "experimental treatment" without adequate assessments.

Keira's view as to her symptoms, and lack of warning about them:

I had symptoms similar to the menopause when a woman's hormones drop. I had hot flushes, I found it difficult to sleep, my sex drive disappeared. I was given calcium tablets because my bones weakened.

Keira claims she was not warned by the Tavistock therapists of the dreadful symptoms ahead. 'My female hormones had been flushing through my body and, suddenly, a curtain came down on them. It felt pretty bad,' she recalls.

And as to now:

'The treatment needs to change so that it does not put young people, like me, on a torturous and unnecessary path that is life-changing. I feel like I've been lied to because it did not make me feel any better.

As she struggles to return to life as a woman, she adds, with feeling: 'I don't want any more kids to suffer like me.

That poor woman. This is unconscionable, and the mere idea of the opposite side of this view even having a case to answer in court is so frightening it seems to be bordering on dystopia. In the meantime (and not directly applicable to FtoM transition) I know someone who is currently experiencing hideous, debilitating menopausal symptoms, and is unable to get HRT. There just isn't any available. Instead, her GP has prescribed her with ... Prozac.

I'm curious to know whether MtoF transitioners are experiencing the same issue.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
FloralBunting · 01/03/2020 10:01

Which is why Kiera really is brave. This story will be punching through the wall of silence because of her courage.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 10:03

Yes, Keira is being slagged off all over trans-internet this morning.
I am so grateful to her for doing this. She’s a proper Shero.

BovaryX · 01/03/2020 10:03

^Ex-Tavistock clinicians Marcus Evans and David Bell would agree with you entirely, Bovary. As do I.
I urge everyone to read Inventing Transgender Children and Young People, edited by Michelle Moore and Heather Brunskell-Evans^

Thank you for the recommendation Sister I really hope Keira Bell has a great support network. She should never have been subjected to this medical ordeal, but it is a testament to her courage that she is challenging this destructive paradigm in court to protect future Keira Bells. The very best of luck to her.

Aesopfable · 01/03/2020 10:34

Remembering, of course, that these youngsters are constantly being told by TRAs that they must be suicidal and that feeling suicidal is part of gender dysphoria. Announcing suicidal ideation is almost one of the extra criteria into this exclusive group. They are also being coached to tell clinicians this in order to access medication. Medications which have as a contraindication mental health difficulties.

Dammandblastit · 01/03/2020 10:46

Poor lass. It breaks my heart to read her statements. I genuinely don't understand why, as a society, we'd intervene with a 16 year old taking drugs and dtinking, but we'll not just watch, but actively encourage, the same child to take a path that will leave them dependent on pharmaceuticals and undergoing nonmedical surgery that will have lifelong consequences. Why don't we cut out the middleman and give them a grenade to play with as newborns? It's horrific. Three, hour long appointments to change a life forever. I've had dental work take longer.

Violetparis · 01/03/2020 10:59

There was a report and interview with Keira on Sky News this morning, and a headline on the news banner at the bottom of the screen.

FredaFrogspawn · 01/03/2020 11:23

I think some analogies can be drawn to cosmetic surgery for people with distress because their breasts are too small, their nose the wrong shape or their butts too flat.

Once some people know the surgery is available, that kind of creates a deeper distress that they aren’t accessing it. And a rose tinted view of procedures which doesn’t really take into consideration the significant risks and imperfections for those who undergo them.

It’s so important to be realistic about how limiting transition may be to curing depression. And how influential the myth of it being a cure-all is to some people.

FlamingoAndJohn · 01/03/2020 12:54

What is really saddening is that if a woman of the same age or even older said that she had really painful periods, knew she never wanted children so could she have a hysterectomy then she would be told no. She would be told that she is too young to make that choice and that she might marry a man who did want children, so that would be unfair on him.
Ditto a woman who knows that she is done with having children and wants her tubes tied. There are women in here who have said they have begged for it and been told things like ‘what if you remarry and he wants children’, ‘what if a child dies so you want another’.

I don’t know the state that the drugs have left Kiera’s fertility in but I can imagine it’s unharmed. Also even if she did want and had children the fundamental right to breast feed your own child had been taken from her.

It is hugely imbalanced against women.

BovaryX · 01/03/2020 13:06

From the Sky article:

But Ms Bell said she found her experience at the Tavistock Centre so distressing that she has since decided to de-transition."It's very difficult because you have to live with the physical changes you've experienced, especially when it comes to things like surgery," she said."The whole process is really traumatic looking back on it, there's no going back from it really because you are changed forever visibly."Ms Bell's legal team will argue the centre's approach was unlawful because children could not give informed consent for this kind of treatment and the potential risks of treatment were not adequately explained

FlamingoAndJohn · 01/03/2020 13:10

I don’t know the state that the drugs have left Kiera’s fertility in but I can imagine it’s unharmed.
-should read ‘I can’t imagine.

buttmonki · 01/03/2020 14:44

This hits me really hard because if I was unfortunate enough to be a child today this could be me.

I was a tomboy. I was bullied relentlessly ostracised and constantly told by not only my peers but also teachers and other parents ‘oh you should have been a boy’. I was suicidal, miserable, depressed. I remember for years wishing I could be a boy, hoping never to have boobs or periods and crying every night about it. I remember having as asthma attack once and being so happy the paramedics mistook me for a boy.

But I did not want to be a boy because I didn’t like my genitals. I wanted to be a boy due to the gender expectations of society, people made me feel like being female and liking riding my bike, shooting air rifles, reading comic books, watching action movies, playing video games and wearing functional clothing was wrong and I was outcast because of it. I thought maybe if I was a boy I could still do all the things I liked, wear the things I liked AND be accepted by society.

Fortunately trans wasn’t on the curriculum then but I can guarantee if it was my peers would all be telling me I should transition and maybe they would have accepted me if I did, but it wouldn’t have been because I wanted to, it would have been because society made me feel I had to.

I could quite easily see myself going down the same spiral of more and more medications thinking each one would make me feel better maybe people would be my friends and then even surgeries like an addiction because when you are desperate and experiencing absolute loneliness and not understanding why as a child leads to desperation you will try anything and just hope that will be the thing which will make it better.

This entire interview sums up the entire concern I have about trans education and the Tavistock clinic and is one of the reasons my children are home educated.

I am now a happily married, comic book loving, sci-fi/action movie watching mother of two. I am happy I was able to have children, I am happy to still be breastfeeding my two year old and should I have been encouraged to transition (something I am sure at the height of my misery as a bullied ostracised teenager I would have embraced) I may have had life altering surgeries and been left unable to do these things.

The thing which frustrates me even more is the damage this is doing to feminism and to helping boys deal with their emotions and become more aware of how misogynistic society is.

The trans curriculums I have seen is reinforcing gender stereotypes even further ‘pink planet - female’, ‘blue planet - male’, ‘multicoloured planet - non binary’ then explained by ‘gender expectations’ the ‘Genderbread Person’ with similar stereotypes.

All children should be learning there are no such thing as girls toys and boys toys, girls activities and boys activities, girls clothes and boys clothes, girls mannerisms and boys mannerisms, girls emotions and boys emotions, women’s jobs and men’s jobs, women’s pay and men’s pay, women’s sports and men’s sports, women’s movies and men’s movies and more.

There are just toys, things, feelings and clothes, there are jobs, hobbies and sports. If we ever want to achieve gender equality we need to eradicate this genderising of children, then we can have a generation of women who believe they can do technical jobs, take on leadership roles and have active hobbies (for fun - not just for appearance) and men who do cry, cuddle babies and talk about their feelings (and are less likely to commit suicide or end up in jail). Once we do then I imagine a large number of children and therefore ultimately adults may be what is currently referred to as ‘non-binary’ but is actually just a human who likes stuff.

For those who are unhappy with their genitals, they can seek help at a body dysmorphia clinic and if after many years of counselling it is deemed that surgery/medication will help them then it’s something which they can be treated for.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 01/03/2020 16:02

Same here buttmonki, I've read some of those "signs you might be trans" lists, or "egg bingo" sheets, and I would have ticked so many boxes as a young teen. I hated makeup or girly clothes, wanted to be out riding bikes with my brother (my dad wouldn't let me ride bikes, I had to stay inside and do sewing kits!) etc. But it was more than just gender preferences, I really saw myself as a boy. I didn't have dysphoria I think, although maybe I would have been diagnosed with it today. I hated growing breasts, but didn't hate my genitals or wish I had a boys body. I did develop an eating disorder as an older teen. But I hated having a female voice and always tried to talk in a lower voice. In my dreams I was always male, and I had a male sounding voice in my head when I thought. I had a strong desire to play a stereotypically male role with my females friends, as in I wanted to be a protector towards them, knight in shining armour/chivalry type role, get into fights on their behalf etc. Whenever I wrote fiction my protagonists were male.

As I got older and broke free of my father, I became happy as an unfeminine woman. I realised that the male voice in my head didn't mean that I was meant to be a man, or that there was something male about me, but it was just a product of growing up in a sexist world. That and depression/anxiety related to having a difficult home life. Finding feminism put all the pieces together for me. There was a young trans man who did an AMA here a while back and so many things they said struck a chord with me. I feel so grateful that I didn't grow up with this stuff being pushed in schools or having 24/7 access to it online. The fact that people think it's more likely that children are somehow literally a sex that they clearly aren't, rather than just being confused and vulnerable to online grooming, is constantly mind blowing to me.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/03/2020 16:28

Meanwhile we have people like Fiona Robertson, SNP Equalities convener saying crap like this:

Remember how feminists fought for years to ensure under-18s the right to be prescribed the Pill without informing parents because patient confidentiality is crucial?

If you think they're not coming for this right next if we allow this principle to be undermined, you're naive.

twitter.com/FionaSnp/status/1234087478916714496?s=19

I've seen this argument a few times, that this is all designed to make sure that Gillick competence is removed in all situations. No recognition whatsoever that preventing pregnancy has rather less of a whole of life impact than a double mastectomy and infertility.

FlamingoAndJohn · 01/03/2020 16:33

something I am sure at the height of my misery as a bullied ostracised teenager I would have embraced

Don’t forget that not only does transitioning give you the gender you feel you want it also comes with ‘membership of a club’, friends online and instant coolness.

Walking away from a whole community is a very hard thing to do, especially when you feel you don’t fit into your own community.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 16:33

If anyone has a minute to vote or post on the AIBU thread about Keira I would be very grateful.

The opening post is goady and inaccurate but we’ve managed to pull the discussion on track.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3836481-AIBU-about-transgender-person-suing-NHS-for-allowing-her-to-transition

Siameasy · 01/03/2020 20:05

It was the job of adults to say no to her and no one did.
It’s the complete opposite of any other safeguarding situation you can think of

YouGoTeIIDrDreDat · 01/03/2020 21:25

Have just seen the interview on the BBC. Blockers and a double mastectomy. Hope she wins her case.

Miljea · 01/03/2020 21:49

buttmonki thanks for yours. Well written, well considered.

Siameasy · 01/03/2020 22:08

Another example of “sacred caste” often spoken about in here
Safeguarding doesn’t apply when you say the word gender.

Miljea · 01/03/2020 22:28

YouGo I think Tavistock will win on this occasion.

I imagine that they will be able to demonstrate that they did 'due diligence', as it were.

Obviously none of us know for sure whether in this case, she felt the alternative was suicide. And how many cases of 'success' Tavistock can cite, in mitigation.

They will be able to demonstrate that they adhered to the accepted standards of the time. They will pull statistics demonstrating that young people did suicide as a result of unresolvable body dysmorphia. They will be able to demonstrate the importance on blocking sex-specific puberty for the unsure, needing 'time', via hormone blockers. 16 for a girl is late.

They will demonstrate that they asked 'the right questions', and her answers were in line with someone sure of their gender dysmorphia. Which were not challenged at the time.

I, I have to say, am strongly opposed to self-ID. I am completely okay with complete transition.

I am conflicted about the situation where someone really, really wants to transition; needs to do it pre-complete puberty, whose '3 x one hour sessions' might be 'several sessions' (semantics, I know), but can demonstrate a strong discomfort regarding gender from 14, possibly earlier (interview).

Who can then cry 'foul'! Once their 'need' is facilitated, but 7 years later.

Do and can we dismiss, or discredit the views of any passionate 16 year old as being invalid, even if the process of validating their belief is, to many's eyes, drastic?

Maybe I should be more open to self ID? So people can 'explore' their gender perception without choosing mastectomies (note : not 'amputation')- but not in my change room, women's refuge, prison.

But a different, though highly related subject.

oopster · 01/03/2020 22:31

The anti trans brigade will use this as an excuse to prevent trans people getting the help they need, when if anything, this just goes to show that more funding is needed in the sector to allow more counselling sessions. There are very few gender identity clinics in the uk, and waiting lists and times for those are scandalously high. More funding, will be able to ensure more trained professionals to help those find the right answers with regards to their gender identity issues.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 22:34

I don’t think the Tavistock will win.

Reposting this from the other thread.

This NHS website provides an excellent overview on what ‘Competent minors’ can and cannot consent to/refuse consent for.

TLDR: day to day medical, surgical and dental, up to them, anything unusual or life threatening, not up to them, but decided by a judge.

www.uhs.nhs.uk/HealthProfessionals/Clinical-law-updates/Children-refusing-treatment.aspx

Quote:
‘ The first and paramount consideration (of the court) is the wellbeing, welfare or interests (of the minor) and I regard it as self-evident that this involves giving them the maximum degree of decision-making which is prudent. Prudence does not involve avoiding all risk, but it does involve avoiding risks which, if they eventuate, may have irreparable consequence or which are disproportionate to the benefits which would accrue from taking them ’.’

Italics are mine.
———
This is what I believe the judicial review will hinge on, are the irreparable effects of GNRH analogues on healthy teenage bodies less harmful than the alternative, which is watchful waiting until adulthood?

GIDS will need to provide evidence that the consequences of not blocking puberty are worse than the consequences of taking triptolerin.
If they cannot do that, then a competent minor cannot consent to the treatment and a judge will have to decide on a case by case basis.

I do not believe the Tavistock has that evidence, because it doesn’t exist.

Datun · 01/03/2020 22:36

They will pull statistics demonstrating that young people did suicide as a result of unresolvable body

The Tavistock themselves have said it's 'extremely rare'. I think it's one in 10 years, possibly 2?