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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lang Cleg 3

172 replies

ButterisbestLangClegisbetter · 25/01/2020 00:07

Can you codify belief into law? Will you mandate that people can transition from one sex to the other and must be treated accordingly? That children who fail to conform to sex role stereotypes are to be taught they were born in the wrong body & will be treated with drugs and surgery? How will you punish the non believers? The heretics
This is the 1000 post by the Bewildernessis Weetabix on Lang Cleg 2
I'm sure that this needs to be repeated

OP posts:
boatyardblues · 26/01/2020 10:24

I should get in the habit of checking the end of the thread before I post replies to earlier pages. Apologies all for interrupting the flow of an important and serious discussion about coercive control and moderation policies. I sincerely hope the reaction to Lang’s banning will result in a thoughtful review of the current FWR rules. You only have to look at who has been picked off in the last 18 months to see its design, not accident.

NotBadConsidering · 26/01/2020 10:37

Since this screenshot of the Centre Parcs thread was posted to Twitter, there have been 4 deletions on the same page of that thread. Coincidence?

Lang Cleg 3
GirlDownUnder · 26/01/2020 10:43

Since this screenshot of the Centre Parcs thread was posted to Twitter, there have been 4 deletions on the same page of that thread. Coincidence?

When I posted my warning on that thread, (liked above) there were no deletions. So if it's a coincidence, it's a coincidence like water is wet.

GirlDownUnder · 26/01/2020 10:44

liked above should be linked above 🤦‍♀️

langclegflavoredbananamush · 26/01/2020 10:47

I’m assuming the standard altar for fallen MNers would include cutted-up pears, as well as bespoke items like mushy Weetabix (boak). pombears

and lots of gin and wine and Cadbury's before it became shit.

Perhaps some enterprising individual would have an Etsy shop with dramatic renditions of iconic events and depictions of usernames.

I came on the boards fairly recently, so I don't know if there was discussions about the rules with the posters. For example, while I find terms like "cis" and "terf" offensive, I wouldn't really want to have a rule against it because I believe in free speech, and even if I didn't, I think having to dance around pronouns I've used since I could speak is a shitty trade-off for some Johnny-come-lately made up words. I wonder if I'm the only one that thinks so.

ThePurported · 26/01/2020 11:09

I agree mush.

There was a thread that had a number of posts deleted for 'misgendering' a male person. After he changed his pronoun preference (by stating on Twitter that he doesn't care about pronouns), subsequent posts in that same thread were left alone.
It means that before posting anything about any individual, you first have to go on other sites to check for pronouns and whatnot, just in case the individual in question has a gender identity, or different pronouns on that particular day.
Maya Forstater 'misgendered' Cllr Gregor Murray. It's easily done.

NotBadConsidering · 26/01/2020 11:09

5 deletions now. I mean seriously, can’t MNHQ see it?

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 26/01/2020 11:13

They don’t want to see it. What company wants to admit they’re being played?

Cwenthryth · 26/01/2020 11:29

For example, while I find terms like "cis" and "terf" offensive, I wouldn't really want to have a rule against it because I believe in free speech, and even if I didn't, I think having to dance around pronouns I've used since I could speak is a shitty trade-off for some Johnny-come-lately made up words. I wonder if I'm the only one that thinks so.
No, you’re not. I find it offensive to be called cis - because I do not identify with gender stereotypes. But I’m not scared of a word and have no desire to curtail others’ speech, I am capable of correcting people if they incorrectly label me as cis, either individually or as part of a group. I think banning of the T**F word is fair enough though as it is solely used as a misogynist term of abuse, to shout “witch!” at independent women and shut them down, I can’t see how it has any use in any other context.

AppleBlossomTimeNow · 26/01/2020 11:31

Of course MN is being targeted. Of course articulate, knowledgeable posters are being picked off. It wasn't so long ago there was the intern who was boasting about being on the inside & threatening to dox Mumsnetters. TRAs will use any means necessary to silence discussion, suppress opinions & set the agenda. MN is having to tread a very fine line, and that can't be easy. But there is a moral as well as commercial imperative here.

ThePurported · 26/01/2020 11:35

There’s something about mumsnet that just gets right up many men’s noses

Some of them do it just for lolz. Like that one regular poster who was on Twitter laughing about girls losing out in sports whilst playing the wide-eyed innocent on here.

OldCrone · 26/01/2020 11:53

I came on the boards fairly recently, so I don't know if there was discussions about the rules with the posters. For example, while I find terms like "cis" and "terf" offensive, I wouldn't really want to have a rule against it because I believe in free speech, and even if I didn't, I think having to dance around pronouns I've used since I could speak is a shitty trade-off for some Johnny-come-lately made up words. I wonder if I'm the only one that thinks so.

This was discussed at the time. As I remember it, the rules initially just banned misgendering and some terms and that TRAs had complained to MN about. MNHQ agreed that it was unfair to censor our speech whilst at the same time allowing TRAs to call us "cis" and "TERF" etc. so those were banned as well.

I agree that the pronoun thing is a nightmare. I try to either avoid using pronouns at all (difficult) or use "them" for anyone who identifies as trans.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 26/01/2020 11:55

Yeah, it shouldn’t be transgressive to use male pronouns for males for heaven’s sake

BickerinBrattle · 26/01/2020 12:02

It IS odd that a U.K. website bans proper usage of the Queen’s English.

ViveLEntenteCordiale · 26/01/2020 12:35

Hear hear Bicker - I cannot bring myself to use plural pronouns to indicate a singular person!

OldCrone · 26/01/2020 12:53

I cannot bring myself to use plural pronouns to indicate a singular person!

I hate doing this, but the alternatives are no pronouns (sometimes extremely difficult to write and for others to understand), correct pronouns (will get deleted), non-misgendering pronouns (I can't use she for someone who is male, it's just wrong), or plural pronouns (sometimes the easiest option if I don't want to spend half an hour writing a coherent post).

langclegflavoredbananamush · 26/01/2020 13:17

This was discussed at the time. As I remember it, the rules initially just banned misgendering and some terms and that TRAs had complained to MN about. MNHQ agreed that it was unfair to censor our speech whilst at the same time allowing TRAs to call us "cis" and "TERF" etc. so those were banned as well.

So, while enforcing rules requested by TRAs, Mumsnet is telling us they're not being played. I'm sure enforcing those rules is a royal pain in the rear for any moderator, especially if they don't personally agree with them. Considering the nature of the board, I'd hope they don't agree with them.
And then banning "cis" and "terf" was an afterthought, which I think plays into the hands of the TRAs because they can say "look, we're compromising, so you have to, too."

Funny how whatever version of "compromise" is proposed between women's rights and transwomen's rights is proposed, it always looks like we're being offered a "If you let us make you do this, or take this from you, we won't do this to you" sort of deal.

It seems like a survival thing to keep our boundaries, but our linguistic boundaries are already compromised when we use this site. The older ones of us are more aware of this, but my heart breaks to think of younger girls being forced to go along with this in schools and elsewhere. It's a first step to destroying the boundaries they so desperately need.
Cuz Safeguarding.
I want Lang Cleg back to say it better than I can, and to make me think about things I hadn't thought of yet.

FFSBringbackLangCleg · 26/01/2020 14:06

The better the day, the better the deed.
Bring her back.
For auld Lang’s sake.

LangClegSupportersClub · 26/01/2020 17:08

Checked this thread hoping they'd been a reconsideration from MNHQ Sad

LangSpartacusCleg · 26/01/2020 23:49

Of course MN is being targeted. Of course articulate, knowledgeable posters are being picked off. It wasn't so long ago there was the intern who was boasting about being on the inside & threatening to dox Mumsnetters.

The intern who publicly threatened to dox Mumsnet users was Emma Healey. Another former intern, Hannah Woodhead, wrote an online article entitled ‘Has Mumsnet become a hotbed of online transphobia’. Her argument was a very one-sided yes and cherry picked quotes as evidence.

So, that is at least two interns with strongly held views on the subject.

Based (only) on what they have written, it appears that interns are allowed to moderate the forums.

I don’t know the demographics of the Mumsnet moderators but I suspect that it does not match exactly the demographics of the users. Those interns, for example, were early to mid twenties when working at Mumsnet. I became a feminist in my very late thirties and it was largely because of my life experience. I know a lot of other women who say the same. We didn’t value feminism in out twenties.

That suggests moderators do not necessarily share the same values or the same concerns as posters.

And that could explain some of the moderation decisions we have disagreed with. I estimate approximately 600 unique posters on the ‘@JustineMumsnet please reconsider reinstating LangCleg’ thread in support of bringing Lang back.

LangSpartacusCleg · 26/01/2020 23:54

Coercive control has been mentioned repeatedly.

I also think organisational GroupThink could be a factor. That is something that occurs naturally in almost all companies. It is Very difficult to guard.

To prevent GroupThink occurring, it is necessary to first fully understand what it is and then take active steps to avoid it. GroupThink is insidious in that you don’t recognise it in the early stages. It only become apparent to the group after the fact (and then only sometimes).

DonkeySkin · 28/01/2020 10:43

Bit late to this, but wanted to add my voice to those asking Mumsnet to lift the ban on LangCleg, who has been consistently one of the most articulate and humane women on here. The value she brings to the board is incalculable, and surely someone being a valued and popular poster over many years should count for something, and warrant a rethinking of a permanent ban.

I also want to say something about pain, because the banning of brilliant women like Lang and others from Mumsnet at the behest of anti-women activists has been painful for many of us, and Mumsnet are also saying that moderating this debate is frequently painful for them.

AppleBlossom noted that: TRAs will use any means necessary to silence discussion, suppress opinions & set the agenda.

I would argue that the main way they do this is simply by making it very, very painful for anyone to question any aspect of their objectively bonkers agenda.

They shamelessly lie about their targets. They threaten and dox them. They file vexatious police reports and lawsuits against them. They accuse them of causing suicide and murder. They compare them to Nazis and other mass murderers. They harass them and the places they work. They sometimes even harass and stalk their children. They ensure that any venue or forum which allows their opponents to speak will be targeted relentlessly until they give in. They don't let up, ever. They are efficient, ruthless and consistent in this tactic. They simply keep on inflicting pain until the target and everyone in their vicinity cries 'Make it stop!'

This is how they get venues to cancel women's meetings. It isn't because the venues agree with the TAs that women meeting to discuss the law are akin to Nazis. They just want the pain to stop.

This is how they got Canada's largest mental health centre to fire its most senior doctor, Kenneth Zucker, on the basis of a report that was stuffed with easily refuted lies and fabrications. It wasn't that CAMH really believed Zucker was an unethical doctor who needed to be summarily fired. Trans activists had made it so painful for CAMH to keep employing Zucker, that the hospital was looking for any chance to jettison him - because that was the only way to make the pain stop. (CAMH recently had to pay out half a million to Zucker for the unfair and illegal circumstances of his firing - money I'm sure they regard as well spent if it persuades the TAs to leave them alone.)

This is why journalists don't cover this issue - not because they believe there is nothing to cover, but because they don't want to deal with the pain that comes with it - pain that will follow them around for the rest of their careers.

Most people deal with the pain that trans activists inflict by consciously or subconsciously making their targets into 'the problem'. So to CAMH, Zucker - rather than the TAs and their sadistic and dishonest tactics - became the problem that needed to be dealt with. Venues see that TAs will bombard them with threats of violence and harass their staff if they host women's meetings - and they decide that the women are the problem.

Same here. TAs target Mumsnet relentlessly because women come here to discuss the impact of gender identity on women and children - and therefore we are the reason TAs are causing them so much pain.

I don't know what to do about this. The only way to counter this is to recognise these tactics for what they are: the modus operandi of abusers - and to refuse to to grant them legitimacy, but few seem prepared to do this. Everyone is keeping up the pretence that this is a 'civil rights movement', seemingly without realising that no genuine civil rights movement has ever operated like this, nor would it need to.

GrinitchSpinach · 28/01/2020 11:03

Excellent post, Donkey.

SisterWendyBuckett · 28/01/2020 11:06

Thank you Donkey, beautifully articulated.

R0wantrees · 28/01/2020 11:45

The only thing I have to say about "we'd recognise if we were being used as proxies" is - family court.
Do you not think judges there would say the same thing?

December 2018 I started a resource thread, ' Coercive Control, A need for better awareness' not just of the existance but of the dynamics involved.

My motivation:
"I also had not realised that what was happening was a pattern. Neither had those around me, including professional counsellors. Im still learning.
Once patterns are recognised they become very obvious but I think the majority of people do not truly understand or recognise them."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness