Reddit: Very Helpful individual wants women punished at work for avoiding ladies' room now used by trans woman

[Durgasarrow]

www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/eq1iia/at_work_someone_has_came_out_a
On the "AskTransgender" subreddit.
"At work someone has came out as a female (formerly male). All the female employees are now using the unisex disabled toilet (which up until now, was only used by me), or toilets on other floors. What can I do to make her feel better?"

From the "Ask Transgender" subreddit. Discuss.

www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/eq1iia/at_work_someone_has_came_out_as_a_female_formerly/

I struggle to believe that this is just about having a trans woman in the bathroom. I would happily share the loo with all of my male coworkers even if they didn’t transition. They’re all perfectly nice and I can’t think of a reason why u would feel uncomfortable sharing. I know that some women don’t like with Male bodies people at all but it surely can’t be true if every woman on the floor. There must be something more to this.

I would happily share the loo with all of my male coworkers even if they didn’t transition. They’re all perfectly nice and I can’t think of a reason why u would feel uncomfortable sharing.

That's lovely for you, and why the answer is gender neutral third spaces where you can get your knickers off with your perfectly nice male coworkers all you want. Females who can't happily share, regardless of how nice the male is (and there will be no interviews on the door to check nice ones only come in female spaces) and who feel deeply uncomfortable to the point of being unable to use that female space any more exist. I'm one of them. Female spaces were designed to work for all female people. If including males in them evicts or excludes some females then it's a fail.

Not everyone feels like you and has your life experiences, or should base their decisions on your personal willingness to surrender the right to female spaces. Other females' rights aren't yours to give on their behalf.

Incidentally I've had male coworkers who were sexist, perverted bastards, and it was bad enough dealing with their behaviour in hallways and break rooms. There's no way whatever that I'd have risked being in a loo with one. The smirks, winks, comments, flashing, pats..... no. Just no.

This is what you're sentencing other females to when you say 'oh but I don't mind, it's silly to mind'.

it surely can’t be true if every woman on the floor. There must be something more to this.

I read Regina's message to mean that although she knows that some women would never share with a male colleague, there would usually be some (like her) who wouldn't mind. So, in this case, there may be something about the male co-worker that means that not one woman there is prepared to share.

Dodopatrol yes I read it like that too. If every woman in the office really has stopped using the ladies it really does suggest something more is going on in this specific case, because you would expect some to feel like Regina (and me in some places where I've worked).
Maybe the original OP should start using the ladies (assuming they don't need the accessible loo either) and find out what's up.

@NoNameIsBeingAccepted
Women/girls avoiding a female service because males are admitted, may be indirect discrimination. It shouldn't just be tolerated.

Surely you see the disconnect in your statement? The female service is no longer a female service because? .... males are admitted.

No, I guess you don't want this attitude tolerated, hence the New Thinking police that redefines what a woman is. It won't work. Didn't Jo Swinson gloriously say "I just know that I'm a woman"? Likewise a lot of women "just know" that TWAT (thanks Sicario).

Just checked and reddit op needs the accessible loo. Some of the advice given is reasonably sensible, but the way a lot of commenters assume it's part of a bullying campaign against the trans woman, assuming they misgender her etc, even though the op makes it clear everyone is friendly to her otherwise, is telling.

Isn't nonameisbeingaccepted referring to indirect sex discrimination against the women who are self excluding?

As far as I can tell, there are broadly three types of male bodied people who want access to female spaces such as toilets.

1 - transwomen. Are transwomen women? Should this be allowed? Unfortunately for these poor souls, who probably DO just want to pee, who probably ARE unsafe in men's loos and changing rooms, there are many more of the other two types of men:

2- autogynaphs, or cross dressers. These men are happy with their penises and male bodies, and are indulging in a sexual practice that is centred in misogyny. No, we don't want to share a loo with them

3 - out and out sexual preditors and abusers, peeping Toms, voyeurs, who now have unlimited access to vulnerable women and girls

Just. Awesome.

Unfortunately for these poor souls, who probably DO just want to pee, who probably ARE unsafe in men's loos and changing rooms, there are many more of the other two types of men:

That assertion ran into a brick wall when some transwomen posted numerous selfies in the men's toilets asking if they belonged there. Not one thing happened to them beyond the same sort of side eye they get in the women's toilets.

The below thread mentions a similar situation, claimed to be a real incident, where a woman turns around and walks out of a toilet when an MTF trans person comes in, being used as an example by HR in an Equality and Diversity training. Former Mumsnetter Trousering asks a QC she's dealing with for work if being forced to participate in a cross dresser's (not all trans people etc etc) fantasy by them being present in the ladies' with women constitutes sexual harassment of the women under the EA. He says yes it could.

Civil Service Trans policy - what can I do? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520371-civil-service-trans-policy-what-can-i-do

I assume said QC was not Jolyon "Fox Terminator" Maugham.

I also read the comment above that the poster works with nice blokes so would feel safe with them.

Some women can't be with men at all, but it is not just these women who won't share, it is all of them, which suggests something about who they don't want to share with.

I would happily share the loo with all of my male coworkers even if they didn’t transition. They’re all perfectly nice and I can’t think of a reason why u would feel uncomfortable sharing.

Very nice for you. My consent, however, is not yours to give.

I would happily share the loo with all of my male coworkers even if they didn’t transition. They’re all perfectly nice and I can’t think of a reason why u would feel uncomfortable sharing.

Thats great for you, right up until the day you have a miscarriage at work, or period flooding, or incontinence. And you need to go clean yourself up, and find you want some privacy.

I really dont understand how 'kink shaming' has suddenly become taboo, but shaming women who want some privacy in the toilet is perfectly acceptable.

I would absolutely self-exclude in this situation. It speaks volumes that this transwoman (and some others - this isn't the only incident I've read/heard about) aren't actually purely interested in a safe private space - the presence of other women is also required.

I was a member of David Lloyd, who like CentreParcs had a perfectly acceptable gender neutral space available for transwomen, and also very see-through shower room doors - and I often wondered what I would do if a male-bodied transwoman came and dressed/undressed next to me in the open plan changing rooms. I came to the conclusion that I would gather my things and move away - probably into a toilet cubicle. But that apparently is heinous transphobic behaviour too - because to some TW (not all TW obvs), access to our spaces isn't enough - our presence is required too.