Michael Rosen, queering children’s literature

[LiterallyProblematic]

I could cry.
twitter.com/wwwritingclub/status/1217210625153290240?s=20

riotlady

No. Not all gay men or lesbian women or bi people use it, and many continue to view it as a slur, due to their own experience of having it used as a slur, or empathising with those who suffered it.

My dd is lesbian, not 'qu**r', emphatically.

Your happiness to identify in a way that erases the nature of female same-sex attraction is your business; but there are gay, bi and lesbian people who don't want a bar of it.

Additionally, many gay and lesbian people identity with heteronorms. If they did not do so, we would not have seen a worldwide push towards marriage, the most heteronormative institution of them all.

@JanesKettle that’s fine, I didn’t say that everyone identifies with it, or that they should have to. Just that there are lots that do and it’s in reasonably common usage.

Autostraddle is one of the most homophobic sites I've ever had the misfortune to read do I don't think that should be a guide to anything.

The word queer has been coopted by all manner of people who are not homosexual and so it's as useful as a chocolate teapot in my opinion. It largely means dying your hair an unnatural shade and not washing enough from what I can tell.

Because if children think a child with 2 dads is normal and something they see in other places, not just one child but in books and tv, then they are less likely to bully that child

Sorry, this is a bit late, but why do people think that a bully needs an excuse to bully and that taking that excuse away will stop them from bullying?

That's not how bullying works or should be treated. Bullies will zone in on anything their victim is sensitive about.

It might be true that part of the reason for queer's adoption is the whole alphabet quality of LGBTQ2+ which is really quite a mouthful in speech.

I'm not on Twitter, but this link might be useful/relevant:

It's interesting to read that thread.

Many people sharing factual information, articles and reports.

Many other people urging him not to read them/take any notice/believe them.

Keep asking questions.

Yes, whether or not Rosen pays any attention, let alone is convinced, is beside the point. It's about others who might be prompted to read and to think.

If you think that discussing the representation of homosexuality in children's literature is "abuse", if you think it's all about sex, you have a massive fucking problem imo. You'd never think the same about a kids' book with a mother and father. Blatant homophobia, and therefore anti-feminist.

You seem to have a few definition confusions going on there.

Queer theory itself is homophobic as it regards homosexuality not as a sexual orientation but a matter of internal identity.

Feminism is the movement for women's liberation from male control. Homophobia is not a good thing but has nothing to do with feminism, unless it is lesbophobia.

Queering the classroom is an entirely different animal than encouraging the depiction of gay and lesbian characters in children's books (what with it being a homophobic).

HTH.

I also am a bit averse to the word 'queering' as a verb.

It implies some form of turning something to be a certain way.

I understand sexualities etc to be something that one is born with, for the most part; deeply personal and individual. The idea of someone trying to change that one way or another doesn't sit well with me.

Why 'queer' something? What would be the response to a suggestion we 'straighten' the classroom?

Appears to me to be too close to conversion.

• at least, it implies trying to forcibly change sexuality. I really don't like the idea of co-ercing or persuading or altering in any way when we're discussing sexuality. Especially when an event is for/about children.

One's sexuality shouldn't be subject to other people's persuasion, urging, argument, intervention. Consent, for me, is at the heart of healthy respect and healthy relationships. That includes respecting someone else's sexual orientation/identity, and their uncovering/discovering/growing into that, without interference.

I'm not sure if I'm expressing this as well as others might!

There are a lot of assumptions, and I don't think anyone has posted up the programme yet?

www.gold.ac.uk/calendar/?id=13077

Welcome from Dr Julia Hope, Head of MA Children’s Literature at Goldsmiths

Sidonie Bertrand-Shelton, Head of Education Programmes at Stonewall, exploring the start and legacy of Section 28, and what an LGBT inclusive school looks like today.

Dr Catherine Butler, lecturer and author, delivering her talk ‘Problems and Challenges in the Portrayal of Trans People in Children’s and Young Adult Literature.’

Talk by Sarah Hagger-Holt, author of debut YA novel, Nothing Ever Happens Here.

Prof Michael Rosen in conversation with past MA in Children’s Literature students, who have written related assignments and dissertations.

Spoken word/poetry performance by Dean Atta, award-winning author of The Black Flamingo and past MA Creative Writing and Education student at Goldsmiths.

Or grooming, Scrimshaw

Sidonie Bertrand-Shelton, graduated with a psychology degree in 2013. She has no background in education at all.

She also wrote the Not Just Pink and Blue transgender inclusion toolkit twitter.com/mforstater/status/1211335704669827074?s=21 used by many councils.

So a 28 year old woman who has gone straight from working in a student union to Stonewall is teaching our schools, our councils and our children about trans identifying children.

Regulatory capture indeed.

I also note that Sarah Hagger-Holt has omitted the fact she also works for Stonewall off her bio.

One's sexuality shouldn't be subject to other people's persuasion, urging, argument, intervention. Consent, for me, is at the heart of healthy respect and healthy relationships. That includes respecting someone else's sexual orientation/identity, and their uncovering/discovering/growing into that, without interference.

I understand what you are getting at here, and I tend to agree to an extent.

The difficulty I have with it is that it does tend to assume that the way we think about sexuality is natural or neutral. There is some truth in saying that seems to be what we've tried to promote, or were trying to, a kind of naturalistic description of the way humans experience sexual desire. But it's not at all clear that it is free of culture or a bias of sorts. And as long as that is the case, the way we think about it will shape the way people interpret their own experience, and how they grow into that experience.

From that perspective you could say what is going on is that they are trying to substitute one narrative or construct for another, the one we think of as naturalistic.

a boy was expelled from school in Scotland for saying there are only 2 genders

That’s not true.

The exclusion was attributed (by the LEA themselves in media releases) to the boy’s wider behaviour in school combined with his choice to post video secretly filmed in school and clearly identifying a member of staff on YouTube.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that it isn’t faux-naivety from Michael, and that he will take time to look at all the info provided for him to read.

I agree with the comment up thread that Rosen is over doing the "oh I didn't know that, what do you think". Probably as much a tactic to ensure he remains a much lauded children's author, so he is testing who he should or should not align himself with.

But if he works at Goldsmiths he must be aware of the issues, and the fact that Goldsmiths (well at least some of its academics) have been criticised for their aggressive trans agenda.

Also a bit confused about some of the comments about the word queer.

I myself have not clear idea of what it has or is meant to say. But understood that the Stonewall umbrella used Queer as a postive cover all term for the multitude of identities they now say the represent. Their definition is:

Queer is a term used by those wanting to reject specific labels of romantic orientation, sexual orientation and/or gender identity. It can also be a way of rejecting the perceived norms of the LGBT community (racism, sizeism, ableism etc). Although some LGBT people view the word as a slur, it was reclaimed in the late 80s by the queer community who have embraced it.

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/glossary-terms#q

And certainly from the 80s it was the rise of queer politics in universities that spearheaded the backlash against women's liberation and women's studies.

I think the explanation given by the event organisers as to the use of the word queering is a deliberate underplay of what the intent actually is.

Unfortunately StumbledIn, I think you are very likely right.

I see what you mean, Goosefoot, but that's not quite what I'm getting at. I appreciate we might 'question' or 'explore' or 'examine', but the verb implies more affecting something, it seems forcible, it implies actively and deliberately changing or turning something.

It's probably just me, getting sidetracked by a small point of language - I've only just noticed it - I have no issue with exploring or examining how things are to look at potential prejudice or normative thinking, etc.

you could say what is going on is that they are trying to substitute one narrative or construct for another,

I suppose it depends what noun the verb is acting on - queering the classroom could just mean the discourse/environment, but to me it also encompasses the children within it, so it's implying affecting the children themselves. Maybe I'm being too literal.

He's being totally disingenuous. He did a Word of Mouth programme on language and gender identity ages ago. Interviewing C N Lester. He is not new to this issue.

There have been some excellent threads in the past about the deeply worrying aspects of Queer Theory, particularly its promotion of paedophilia as a 'transgression of norms and taboos'. Dr EM has also written extensively about the paedophilic roots of Queer Theory, and the seriously dodgy founders of Queer Theory: uncommongroundmedia.com/the-trojan-unicorn-queer-theory-and-paedophilia-part-i-%EF%BB%BF-dr-em/

I remember that imnobody. Was it about the language of computer gaming?