Scottish GRA consultation

[SidJS]

Ends 17th March

Does anyone have the link / email address to submit responses to? All can and need to respond - not just the Scots!

I've submitted with no problems this morning

Submitted. Thank you for the reminder.

This is a really important point from the forwomen.scot/ guidance.

Basic terms in the Bill are not defined. It is important to understand what terms like “living in the acquired gender” actually mean, particularly when a new criminal penalty is to be introduced for making a false declaration about it.

Has a law ever been passed before, which is based on making a declaration about a term which is undefined, with a criminal penalty which can be imposed for making a false declaration?

We need a definition from the Scottish Government about exactly how a person is considered to be 'living in their acquired gender'. Without that, the rest of the bill makes no sense at all.

On Questions 4 and 5, I did personal replies followed by a statement that "I fully support the submissions already made by" - then I listed the organisations with the links to their submissions.

Should make it a bit easier for whoever has the task of analysing the responses.

OldCrone - totally agree. The GRA2004 is bad enough without adding to the confusion with further undefined provisions which could land someone with a criminal record.

Although . . . I have my doubts that they have any intention of introducing "a new criminal penalty . . . for making a false declaration". I think it is just a sop to allay concerns.

Done! Thanks to everyone for keeping this a live thread. The LGB Alliance website was helpful for ideas, but I really just filled it in from my heart, and simmering rage!

Living in England I didn’t do this but just wanted to mention that Rhona Hotchkiss was on Woman’s Hour this morning. She was very good. Try about 35 minutes in. Glenda Jackson was on before (not on GRA) which was also good

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000gczr

The consultation is for everyone -Scottish or not. Please fill it in today!

Will do nicerainyweather, didn’t realise it was for everyone. Off to do it now....

Finally got mine in! Would have been a lot quicker if I didn't end up writing a flipping essay for each question (though using a lot of info from the various sets of guidance - tried not to copy/paste though but rephrase in my own words/pick out key concerns), which kept me up late last night and busy for much of today, but at least it's done now!

I have my doubts that they have any intention of introducing "a new criminal penalty . . . for making a false declaration". I think it is just a sop to allay concerns.

It's in the draft bill:

14 Offences
After section 22 of the 2004 Act insert—
“22A Offence of making false declaration or application (Scotland)
(1) A person commits an offence if the person knowingly makes a statutory declaration in accordance with this Act or regulations made under it which is false in a material particular.
(2) A person commits an offence if the person knowingly includes any other information which is false in a material particular in—
(a) an application under—
(i) section 8A(1) for a gender recognition certificate,
(ii) section 8F(1), 8J(1) or 8K(1) for a full gender recognition certificate, or
(iii) section 8O(1) for a confirmatory gender recognition certificate, or
(b) a notice of confirmation under section 8B(3).
(3) A person who commits an offence under subsection (1) or (2) is liable—
(a) on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both),
(b) on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or a fine (or both).”.

Of course, they can't enforce this, since it will be impossible to prove that someone has made a false declaration because they haven't defined what 'living in an acquired gender' actually means.

I made quite a point in mine about ‘living in the acquired gender’. The more you think about it the more batty it becomes particularly as no physical change at all is required. Men and women wear jeans, T shirts, hoodies, boots. Both have long and short hair and both work and care for children? Many names are unisex. So what is the difference between Alex, a man who wears jeans and T shirts and hoodies and Alex, transwoman, who wears jeans, T shirts and hoodies and is living ‘as a woman’. Will the Scottish Government be issuing lists of male and female clothing? Approved male and female names and haircuts? I suspect that the potential for mockery is why they didn’t define it. Bonkers.

Exactly- I had a wee rant about how the only things different for me & my husband are biological.
Actually now I think about it I haven’t worn a skirt or dress in about 20yrs & he wears his kilt at least once a year....

Haven't read through this thread.. but I've badgered a friend enough to respond to it and she said - isn't this whole consultation invalid though, it's asking questions about gender, but the whole point of the Bill is to allow people to change the 'sex' on their legal documents? Aren't those 2 things entirely different?

(By allow she meant 'rush through the process, without any checks or balances', obviously).

Still time for this

LizziesTwin

Just done it very quickly, but at least one more response.
If anyone else is still up it doesn't (have to) take too long, answers can be short and you don't have to be in Scotland to complete.

Just got mine in on time last night.
Thanks for that detailed report on the 2018 consultation, Charlie. I respnded to that one too, and I was puzzled yesterday while doing the new one because they seemed to be asking similar questions again. It didn’t seem they had taken any notice of the information women gave them last time. if they think there’s no evidence of harm, they’re deliberately ignorong it.

Important though the consultation is, the decisive factor will be putting pressure on MSPs over the next period and making it clear that if they oppose women's rights they will not only not get our votes, they will also face a determined, loud and aggressive campaign against them.

Yes, the consultation is only the first stage.
The Bill will need to be passed by the Scottish Parliament, so we have to get in touch with all of our MSPs and get them to vote No if they agree that this Bill will threaten women's rights. A vote to Abstain won't help. It has to be No.

The SNP leadership think they can push this through and wrap it all up before elections and we women will meekly carry on. MSPs of all parties have to understand that they will lose women's votes and our support and we will hold them accountable for the erosion of women's rights. There is no way the current Bill can be said to not be in conflict with women's rights in the Equality Act.

There is a quote from The West Wing which keeps coming to mind
Amy tells Josh “The women’s vote isn’t just half your constituency, it’s the entire margin of victory”

I made quite a point in mine about ‘living in the acquired gender’. The more you think about it the more batty it becomes particularly as no physical change at all is required.

This is something that I would be asking my MSPs about if I lived in Scotland. I also wrote quite a bit about this in my response.

This is what MurrayBlackburnMackenzie said about this:

3. Lack of key definitions: The draft Bill does not define ‘acquired gender’, aside from a circular reference to the ‘gender in which a person is living’. The removal of all gatekeeping means that GRC applications will rest wholly on a person’s self-declared commitment to a concept that has no clear definition in law.

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2020/03/16/our-response-to-the-scottish-gra-reform-consultation/

MSPs who support the reform should also be interested in there being a clear, unambiguous and objective definition of what 'living in an acquired gender' means if they have an interest in the law having clarity and being fit for purpose. Why would anyone not want to have this term properly defined in the legislation? (Yes, I do know the answer to that)

If this term is undefined, how will they enforce the law about false declarations?

Shit, I missed this. I feel bad about it.
I think they should have extended the closing date. I would say going back at least for the past two weeks, really it is wrong to have had any kind of open government consultation that is not now remaining open for well beyond the next 3 months from now, because of the COVID situation. I responded to the 2018 one and would have done it again.

"Of course, they can't enforce this, since it will be impossible to prove that someone has made a false declaration because they haven't defined what 'living in an acquired gender' actually means."

I forgot it was in the Bill, OldCrone. Still a "a sop" though - for the reason you state. It makes it all sound very serious - but it's just blather. Either they are terminally stupid or they think the electorate is

I saw a piece in a paper I can’t rember which it was to say this has been kicked into long grass for time being as our government is busy doing stuff 💪

Yes littlbrowndog, apparently going to be kicked into the long grass.

www.thenational.scot/news/18321142.gender-recognition-reforms-go-hold-coronavirus/