Do women in their 20s generally think it's the victims fault?

[Twittlebee]

A conversation about how to raise our children quickly became a debate about whether women are victims of inequality and discrimination today. I think I probably swayed it that way as I mentioned how anxious I am about raising girls knowing what females are more likely to have to face through life.

But what became apparent very quickly is that my group of 10 female friends blame the victim for their issues. Is this common thinking now among those in their 20s?

For example, one friend said, in response to me discussing fears about rape and using my own rape as an example, that she would ensure she raised her daughter to be as confident and secure as she is so her daughter doesnt find herself in that situation.

Another said the pay gap has been caused by women who dont know their self worth and men deserve higher pay because they're better workers. She also said she doesnt believe there really is a pay gap anyway.

There was an overall consensus that the pay gap is a myth and that women and men are equally as likely to commit sexual crimes and be victims of them.

Overall there was a lot of victim blaming. Including at how I mentioned being fired when I was pregnant was my own fault for not standing up for myself (not sure how I was meant to?)

Anyway, I was rather taken back and now thinking I've been living in a bit of an echo chamber as I havent openly discussed these views and concerns outside MN before. Is this the norm?

Do 10/11 women in their 20s really think that women's issues are caused by the individual woman? And are they right? Was I raped because my mum didnt raise me to know how to avoid that situation as a friend implied? Are men really just harder workers?

I've heard of blaming rape victims for drinking, going out alone, the clothes they wear, being sexually active etc... But never blaming it on their mother.
I was brought up to be independent, be aware of my surroundings and to follow my interests. I was attacked, in the street by a stranger on the way home from music practice at the age of 19. Maybe I should have been brought up to stay at home instead.

Ahh the delusions of youth. If I'm strong and confident nothing can go wrong. Think positive and you're invincible. The myth of a just universe.
What confuses me is how much longer it seems to take this generation to grow up.

Maybe we should look at that as a bit of a win @Imnobody4 that my generation is taking longer to grow as it might mean they're experiencing it less than previous generations? However, does make me fear that without the recognition for the need of change it will any progress will unravel

Yes, see that's how it's made me feel @Aroundtheworldin80moves ! That I should have been raised strong enough to not be effected by sleeping pills that were used on me

I'm 26 and think that the only one at fault in a rape scenario is the rapist

Drunk, alone, scantily clad it makes no difference.

What about the pay gap @iswhois ?

They all need to read Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez.

I would say that women overall have quite a variety of views about the questions you seem to have been discussing. I can't say that I know many that would say that being raped is the fault of the woman, much less that being confident would prevent is. But I know many who would say that they think there are things that create more risk. Views on the pay gap IME are about as varied among women as they are among men.

I'm 28 and certainly don't feel like this.

Not sure if I'm representative. I remember my mindset shifting quite a lot after researching and writing a dissertation on rape culture.

For example, one friend said, in response to me discussing fears about rape and using my own rape as an example, that she would ensure she raised her daughter to be as confident and secure as she is so her daughter doesnt find herself in that situation

Utter, utter bullshit. But believing that makes her feel safer - "it will never happen to us because "

Exactly what @ohwheniknow said.

X was wearing a short skirt/got drunk so it's her fault = I don't so it won't happen to me

X doesn't talk up in appraisals/doesn't ask for further training = I do so it won't happen to me

X wasn't confident enough so her husband abused her = I'm confident so it won't happen to me

I think there’s a lot of inexperience in their views. I was fired first day back from maternity leave for no reason except discrimination, yet I had a female (non-parent) tell me discrimination doesn’t happen anymore. Thankfully the tribunal didn’t agree.

People in the UK in their 20s now are less likely to drink heavily, so maybe they see getting drunk and getting in an unbooked cab or walking home alone as “contributory negligence” but that doesn’t change the fact that being drunk is not consent.

Ask them again in 10 years. I bet they give more sensible replies.

screams into void

that about sums up my response to such complete delusion

It makes people feel safer. I'm in my 40s now and look back at some beliefs i used to have and realise how many of them were a poor attempt at self protection. It won't happen to me because I'm not silly/drunk/don't walk like a victim etc.

I counter this these days with men and women of all ages by trying to talk it through calmly and challenge their ideas. It's not only youth though - met an older mum a while ago who was outraged when i said domestic violence could affect anyone. Not her daughters! She had brought them up with confidence and self respect! We were at a volunteer training for a young people's helpline. Interesting view of who she might need to speak to and respect.

I have a friend who escaped domestic violence but agrees with another friend that women should be helped once to escape a bad relationship but second time is their fault. For my friend who escaped, i suspect that is about shame and blame she feels for her own experience and it is easier to carry if she sees herself as not like 'them'. These are both women in their 40s.

There is a lot of shame around being attacked or being held back for being female - and an obsession in our culture with an individual being at fault.

Its just really got me questioning my own views. Perhaps everything bad that's happened to me had been my own fault and so I should look to make changes to myself before speaking out about my perceived issues with society?

I thought the pay gap one was particularly interesting, when I said about the 17% difference it was called BS but also blamed on women for not working hard enough or being the woman's fault for entering into a male dominated industry where she doesnt have the confidence to keep up with the men.

Looking back over the conversation, a lot of it revolves around confidence or lack of. Perhaps they view me as a non-confident woman?

I do agree with the view that this could be how they protect themselves and the thought of raising their daughters. But then interestingly one on the mum's who has boys was the most vocal about how there is no discrimination towards women anymore and she will certainly be ensuring she raises her boys to take what they can and want.

I'm 28 and don't feel this way. I also don't think it's just women in their twenties that do think like that.

I work in a nursery. Lots of women. 22 members of staff in my setting.
All but me and 2 other women (both in their twenties) believe that women bring on their own problems, that they wear too short a skirt, that they were too drunk, that they shouldn't have been walking alone at night etc etc.

They don't believe in the pay gap (because we are paid well by our employer, certainly more than any other nursery within the immediate area, I know, I've checked)
And they think that women having children is up to them and if they really wanted to work their way up.the career ladder they wouldn't have kids... Despite 17 of us having our own children!

It is internalised misogyny.

Idiots. They will learn, too late, what it's really like to live in the world. And feel rightly ashamed of the word vomit they spewed in their youth.

I'm sure they would probably find some way to blame this child for her death, or perhaps her mother, from whose sleeping arms she was abducted.

Probably they would blame 8 month old baby, too, or the child's mother who needed to work (presumably so she could afford to eat) & who left the baby with a cousin, who raped her & left her with such severe injuries she needed surgery. But, it's obviously not the men's fault.

There's a lot to be said for letting your kids experience a bit of crap & hardship while they're young. Nothing good comes from letting them think that your luck in life is entirely down to how you behave & how hard you work. Sometimes, life just sucks.

That is really interesting! @HerRoyalFattyness I wonder what their views are then on the mum's that drop off their children?

Yes exactly that, life is just unfair and is shit for no reason @AwdBovril !

I don't think it's limited to 20s.
In sexual assault / rape cases reported in my local paper, the facebook comments section is full of comments from women of all ages victim blaming.

I'm in my 40s. In my 20s I never thought rape was the victim's fault but I didn't think the gender pay gap existed and I didn't realise how different things were for men and women in the workplace but that's because in my industry women actually do extremely well at the lower levels. I saw no older women or mothers. I didn't realise at the time it was because there's not really a place for them, even now.

@Twittlebee
They all weirdly agree that women going to work is a good thing and that we are providing a vital service for parents.

It's very strange.

I was raped by a friend in my own home while I was wearing slobbyclothing and no make up I didnt deserve it

NO rape is the victims fault. Op, firstly words cannot convey how sorry I am you've been through that. I was raped several times by my fiance. It's no one fault but the rapists.

Your friends are extremely naive.

I think the kindest way of referring to most women like this is that they've had the luxury of not having to experience these things.

Re the pay gap, it increases as you age. It's not as pronounced in your 20s as 40s. So it's not something that impacts them as much right now. Again, wait until they're a bit older.

I've found myself and a lot of my friends had BIG changes on our levels of enragement after having kids in our 30s. After watching women around us not being able to get back into work easily, after watching them left with two small kids and reduced career prospects while exDh swanned off abroad free of kids, of understanding the damage our friends were going through in long term abusive relationships and "just leaving" wasn't always possible straight away etc, never mind realising how many of us had been raped earlier. Not much of that had become apparent in our 20s.

Re rape, these friends of yours are not just wrong, the one who said that to you - and went unchallenged - is being a bitch. It's one thing to have the luxury of not understanding, of the bliss of ignorance, but victim blaming a rape survivor to their face is a whole other level. If that ever comes up again, I'd reckon it'd be worth challenging her, because she deserves to look an idiot - if you feel up to it. Even something along the lines of "Ik sure you don't really mean to victim blame women who have been brutalised by men. Or do you?" head tilt.

Oh I certainly did challenge her on it @ahumanfemale though and questioned the victim blaming. I questioned all the victim blaming but they all just continued finding reasons why it's my or other victims fault. The conversation also very quickly moved to how women also rape and they believe that men are raped by women just as much as men but it isnt reported