Do women in their 20s generally think it's the victims fault?

[Twittlebee]

A conversation about how to raise our children quickly became a debate about whether women are victims of inequality and discrimination today. I think I probably swayed it that way as I mentioned how anxious I am about raising girls knowing what females are more likely to have to face through life.

But what became apparent very quickly is that my group of 10 female friends blame the victim for their issues. Is this common thinking now among those in their 20s?

For example, one friend said, in response to me discussing fears about rape and using my own rape as an example, that she would ensure she raised her daughter to be as confident and secure as she is so her daughter doesnt find herself in that situation.

Another said the pay gap has been caused by women who dont know their self worth and men deserve higher pay because they're better workers. She also said she doesnt believe there really is a pay gap anyway.

There was an overall consensus that the pay gap is a myth and that women and men are equally as likely to commit sexual crimes and be victims of them.

Overall there was a lot of victim blaming. Including at how I mentioned being fired when I was pregnant was my own fault for not standing up for myself (not sure how I was meant to?)

Anyway, I was rather taken back and now thinking I've been living in a bit of an echo chamber as I havent openly discussed these views and concerns outside MN before. Is this the norm?

Do 10/11 women in their 20s really think that women's issues are caused by the individual woman? And are they right? Was I raped because my mum didnt raise me to know how to avoid that situation as a friend implied? Are men really just harder workers?

But rape, by definition is committed with a penis...

People like this honestly frustrate me. They must live such a sheltered life.

It's quite telling that the 3 of us at my work (me and 2 others) who believe rape to be the fault of the rapist and no one else, are the three of us that have admitted to being sexually assaulted.

@MNHQ - I have a quote that I would like to share, in the form of a picture, which I think could help @Twittlebee while discussing this with friends, but it is quite distressing and triggering.

@Twittlebee - please let me know if you would like me to PM or post, I don't want to send it, or post to your thread, if it would be upsetting/derailing.

That is interesting, it makes me wonder if others have been raped but don't admit it because they blame themselves for becoming the victim which is so so so sad @HerRoyalFattyness

If it's likely to cause distress to others but may be useful to me to share to my friends another time if this conversation resurfaces then do DM me it @GinnyLane

That must have been a very upsetting conversation bee

I think PPs comments about the pay gap being more visible as you age is probably very relevant but I can’t think of anything to explain the victim blaming.
As a teen I believed myself safe from rape because I was unattractive - made sure all my friends got home safely then walked alone across large parks in the middle of the night but I think that was about rationalising doing what I wanted rather than victim blaming iyswim

It feels like the closer women get to equality the steeper the hill gets...

Rape in many cases is avoidable if you don’t place yourself in dangerous situation

No it is not.

How dare.you say something so disgusting?

Rape is only avoided through rapists being caught and incarcerated before they rape any more women than they already have.

What an awful, vile attitude.

Would you like a biscuit oksanna? Coming on the FWR being deliberately goady to a rape survivor is vile.

@Oksanna bloody hell where are you from the 70s???

Why is a woman's clothing an invitation to be raped? Seriously? That is so screwed up to compare a woman's body to money being on display. You know it was views like that that allowed The Yorkshire Ripper to murder so many women. It's ok they're women on the street, immoral who cares if they're raped and killed.

Pay gap - just no answer for that

Would love to see your views in 10 years

No, your post was deleted by @MNHQ for breaking talk guidelines
Not by "libtards" as you so eloquently put it

the pay gap exists but certain doesnt need to be as big as it is if women really pushed for it. I'm a manager and every year the men on my team(and in all previous jobs) come armed to their appraisals asking for more money or promotions and why they should get it. the women dont ask.. I have to tell them in advance that it's their opportunity to ask and they should do so.

Maybe derailing a bit now but what is the best approach to ask and negotiate @flyingchip ?

@Oksanna does a woman deserve to be raped when a government sanctions it, like the Japanese government did with the thousands of "comfort women" during WW2? Who was to blame for that? Was it the women, some of whom were just children when they were abducted from their family homes, as they were told that if they didn't go to do "war work" (the nature of which was grossly misrepresented), their families would suffer. But I imagine you'd still say it's their fault, because they "consented".

Twittlebee your friends definitely have some internalised misogyny going on.

I'd be bored of listening to that pretty quick. Are they worth keeping around as friends?

Oksanna could you please explain why children are raped? Can you explain why OAPs are raped? How about girls in their school clothes or women dressed casually?

I simply said that such a woman is not smart. You cannot control anyone’s actions but your own and an adult is responsible for his/her own safety

Please explain then how elderly women can end up being raped in their own homes? Or children? What should they do to be more careful?

But when a woman fools around with a new boyfriend (with whom she doesn’t plan on having sex) in his apartment and then complains that he overstepped the boundaries and that she was ‘raped’ - this is her own fault too*

I said about an hour ago on another thread that I had just seen the silliest post in a long time but that award is now handed to you.

Have everything clear about how you have achieved your targets from the last year and preferably think about how you have gone above on some or other projects you've taken on etc. If you work somewhere where you can clearly show value you have personally added to the company then spell it out.

Make sure during your 121's throughout the year you are stating you are looking to progress and want your managers to help with this and are therefore you are looking for additional training / shadowing / opportunities should they become available. You can then bring this up again in your appraisal about feeling you either do alreasy take on more than others or are ready for that next step.

Do blow your own trumpet (without being a total idiot) when you have successes so that its noticed. Even small ones! Some people do quietly get on with their work and are great but they do get lost in the crowd doing this.

Look elsewhere and get evidence of higher paid roles that are comparable or that you could leave to. A project manager came to me with evidence from 2 competitor companies of jobs listed 2 months ago paying 10k more and did all of the above. they said how much they loved working for us but obviously have to consider their salary and was there anything we could do to make their role more comparable. They got 5k more - better than nothing. This obviously only works if you are good and you know the company will want to keep you, but if you are good dont doubt that they will want to.

Every time I've spoken female friends they say they just dont think they're going above and beyond, or being good is just doing their job. But, the men are asking regardless and have no shame , and it works.
The worst that can happen is they say no and you stay where you're at. I read "lean in" and it hammered this home to me quite a few years - give it a read if you havent already. so I've always pushed myself to ask and I'm high up now so must be doing something right. (this is meant as motivation not bragging!)

But when a woman fools around with a new boyfriend (with whom she doesn’t plan on having sex) in his apartment and then complains that he overstepped the boundaries and that she was ‘raped’ - this is her own fault too.

There's a very important piece of information in your post
with whom she doesn’t plan on having sex

Thai bit here means she doesn't want sex, therefore does not consent and is in no way to blame if her new boyfriend decides she owes him sex and raped her.

OP I’d be asking these women if they think their daughters will never ever be alone with a man.

Every time I've spoken female friends they say they just dont think they're going above and beyond, or being good is just doing their job. But, the men are asking regardless and have no shame , and it works.
Definitely. I was trying to get female managers under me to apply for a development opportunity recently and not one thought she was good enough. We had to plough through over twenty applications from fuckwits to find three decent blokes to offer it to.

I'm in my 20's. This is absolutely not what I think. I also have 3 children all girls, I hope they never think like that. Rape is only the rapists fault. Pay gap ect ect is a long running problem, I hope my children are aware of it and fight for their worth.

Huge hugs OP. The attack that happened to you was absolutely not your fault in any way.

Here is a to go with your tea @Oksanna

Thank you so much @flyingchip ! I do think I'm worth more, in fact my director joked to me about how he couldn't believe he got me so cheap! So that was a kick in the teeth. I have a review coming up in April so I shall certainly seek a promotion, I can prove I've been doing work beyond my grade so that should help. My only worry is I'm due to go on maternity leave end of May!