Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

[Ritascornershop]

I have a 19 year old son who is very compassionate and left-wing (I mention that as he’s been indoctrinated in TWAW) but who can’t grasp the discomfort many women feel at men in women’s private spaces.

And recently a friend was telling me that a family member of his (who he has quite the blind spot over) broke up with his girlfriend. The gf had, before she met his family member, been sexually assaulted. She was naturally quite traumatized by the rape but trying to heal and met this guy and got in a relationship with him. The way my friend tells it. his family member broke up with her after a few months (during an argument) & family member “got so uoset” he punched a hole in the wall and broke a chair. She called the police and called friends. My friend seemed to feel she over-reacted! I think any woman would be frightened and that a woman who’d been sexually assaulted would be particularly terrified.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard?

Thank you for being sceptical, and accusing me of either lying, not being a woman or being in denial. I am not lying, I am not in denial, and I am not not acknowledging "minor" incidents. I haven't been assaulted and I also haven't been groped, grabbed, had my hair pulled, my bra strap pinged, or my skirt lifted. I have been wolf whistled on I think one occasion.

As I said in a previous post, in my 20s I sometimes thought that the fact I hadn't been groped etc was proof that I was indeed ugly and awful. I wasn't getting any wanted male attention (e.g flirting, dates, a boyfriend), but I also wasn't getting any of the unwanted male attention that I was aware that other women were getting. I felt pretty shit about myself back then.

When #metoo started I felt a bit abnormal as I didn't have experiences of that type that most other women were talking about/revealing. Some of the comments on this thread are making me feel as if I must be a really abnormal freak of a woman. I absolutely believe the experiences of every woman on this thread who has been sexually harassed and assaulted. Please believe my experiences in return.

But you not had any experience s. That’s cool

Buts it’s cool that you can empthasise because that’s what’s needed

It’s that simple

I am often disappointed that men I thought understood really don’t

Recently chatting at work I mentioned being referred to as sexy when I was young. The men (same age as me) said well the guy must have been a paedophile when I told them no i didn’t think so and women would also use the term they thought my family/friends were weird. They didn’t seem to understand that girls are sexulised like this and if they are it wasn’t down to society but only by adults who are sexually attracted to children ffs they grew up in the 70’s too. They have also pondered why when women don’t just shout out and tell men to fuck off when harassed in public - mmm the fear factor what is so hard to understand I am physically weaker, feel humiliated and intimidated

All my female family and friends and work colleagues have been either harassed, assaulted and many have been more seriously assaulted and raped - that’s horrific seeing it in black and white

This thread is about why men either don't get women's safety concerns or don't care about those same concerns.
Whether individual women have extensive, limited or no experience of male aggression is irrelevant. The question wasn't why do some people find it hard to understand, it was why do men find it hard to understand.

Which is it with men? They know how uneasy women are and don't care? Or they are oblivious to it? Or is it that less predatory men are oblivious and more dangerous men are aware of it?

The really depressing question is this: if men (the majority, namalt etc etc) really understood what life is like for women, would they take steps to help or would they take advantage? Is getting men to understand going to actually help or is it better to demand safety measures and refuse to debate whether those measures are worthwhile?

I'm leaning towards the latter. I don't want to have to keep describing why having a man in a locked ward is a bad idea. It seems obvious, but there are bad-faith debaters who will come up with unfeasible scenarios in which the inclusion of men is suddenly a question of life or death.
We're over half the population and should just be able to say "we want these measures put in place because we want them, we're not going to debate, we pay taxes and we vote and we want better street lighting, more CCTV in buses and to keep guards on trains" (for example)

I also agree with previous comments about the equality message. There are loads of people about who honestly believe men and women are evenly matched, and have similar strength and speed.
If we are taking girls off to one side in school and teaching them about safety, we need to tell them this. Girls need to know that past a certain age, they don't stand a chance in a physical fight with a male.

It's not an "empowering" message but I'd rather girls didn't have to find out the hard way. What they do with that information is up to them, but I think it's the bare minimum we should be telling girls.

I think you’re right and it should not be up to us to make a case, the statistics do that for us.

I’ve been so disappointed in my friend. He’s always seemed very protective of me, so I assumed he got it, but as soon as it involves one of his family members he has a massive blind spot.

For the vast majority of men, I don't think they can "really grasp" it.

I kind-of got it even back as a teenager. But I never really saw that there's a constant threat of attack, and the influence that has on everyday behaviour.

Something that's helped my own understanding is a talk Helen Steel gave. I think it's the one linked here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3102159-Helen-Steels-speech-from-Cambridge-Womens-Place-meeting

So I think women speaking about their experiences has an effect. It's so hard to do that though.

but as soon as it involves one of his family members he has a massive blind spot

I think this is one area where we need to be shouting the statistics out. I think of all rape reports it's 1 or 2% that are deemed "false allegations" (the wording implies lying but that is rarely the case, so in effect the number for women who lie about having been raped is lower still, and this is from reports to police so lower even still).
That means if a man's friend is accused of rape, he needs to know it is 98% likely that his friend did it. Not 50/50, not probably possibly maybe. 98% likely. He also needs to know it's unlikely this will be proved in court. Men need to know that there are rapists among their social circles and the lack of a conviction means very little. Rape is almost decriminalised, this doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

The only other thing I'd make sure men understood is that a rape doesn't have to be a violent stranger jumping out of a bush with a knife to be traumatic. Again, they don't get this - it's just bad sex right? Except if you repaint the scenario to include only men.

Men are obsessed with prison rape, if a rapist or paedophile is put away they start fantasising about what will happen to him, as if there is an Official Prison Rape Team sent to attack all sex offenders. The reason men are obsessed with prison rape is because being in prison with large, strong criminal men is as close to being sexually vulnerable as a man will ever get.

So if a man says that a bum pinch or a hand on the knee or an unwanted kiss aren't that bad, I just repaint the scenario as his cellmate doing that to him. Generally when you talk about harassment men think they wouldn't mind it if a woman did it to them nudge-nudge etc (and I've known a man who had this happen and it was horrible for him) but seem to understand the woman's point of view when faced with unwanted attention from other men.

Obviously I don't want to go around making men homophobic, but generally men just don't take women seriously as a threat so straight men just can't empathise otherwise.

if men (the majority, namalt etc etc) really understood what life is like for women, would they take steps to help or would they take advantage?

My husband fusses about my walking home late at night from work or getting a taxi late if I'm out socially without him. I'm regularly told that no matter what time it is I should phone him and he'll collect me. I never do.

I know he does the crossing over to the other side of the street thing if walking behind a woman at night. If sharing a late night taxi with female friends he will instruct a route so that we are dropped off last. These are not at my instigation.

AriadneAufNaxos right so you've never experienced any male aggression and your husband is a considerate man. That's brilliant news, but I was asking whether the majority of men would use an understanding of women's fears for us or against us.
What is your opinion on that and why?

So if a man says that a bum pinch or a hand on the knee or an unwanted kiss aren't that bad, I just repaint the scenario as his cellmate doing that to him. Generally when you talk about harassment men think they wouldn't mind it if a woman did it to them nudge-nudge etc (and I've known a man who had this happen and it was horrible for him) but seem to understand the woman's point of view when faced with unwanted attention from other men.

A woke colleague only really started to get this after he'd booked a massage and the masseuse was male. He was explaining that he was far more comfortable receiving intimate touch and care from women, he wasn't sure why he'd been so uncomfortable about being touched in that way by a man. I pointed out that it was his first experience of feeling sexually vulnerable.

Men want to be dominent. Its in their nature. So it does work to their advantage that women are submissive and afraid.

I also think that alot of women will look for a partner who can protect them because of that inherent fear - whether consciously or not. Again incentavising men to keep us scared.

I think generally speaking most men subconsciously want women to remain afraid and submissive. A small number actively and knowingly keep women scared and the rest just don't think about it or care.

Oh, the MRAs. All my friends have had several of these happen (molestation, sexual assault, attempted but thwarted assault, gropings, catcalling and other street harassment) and none of us reported it. I'm not basing my fear and behavior on STATISTICS, I'm basing it on my life experience.

I grew up in the 70s, nobody taught me to be afraid of men, that was what I learned through experience to protect myself. The worst of it all happened when I was under 16. But I wanted to mention I think the younger generation is more clueless about situational awareness and protection because they don't spend as much time outside and a lot of them aren't having sex until their 20s (this isn't a bad thing, but it means they don't have the experience we had at their age). I talked to a 25 year old woman who just started having sex and she was having an existential crisis realizing for the first time that the guy she had sex with could overpower her easily and do anything he wanted and she couldn't stop him. She felt afraid for the first time. She made it to 25 without realizing this. I unfortunately learned it at age 5.

A woman was recently attacked near by on New Year’s Day.

The attacker still haven’t been caught.

Today, our (Male) manager had a meeting and was telling us this we have been doing a lot of the time anyway.

Being aware of our surroundings
Try to make sure you arrive in groups (I start at 4am)
Be careful when you leave work if it’s still dark
Try and arrange lifts if you need to

The night shift( usually Male)at work have also been told to quickly answer the door in the morning now instead of waiting. Before, we could be waiting 2-3 mins. Now they are expected to answer immediately

We were also given a rape alarm.

It just shocked me at how naive men seem to think we are. We grow up knowing these things as women.

realizing for the first time that the guy she had sex with

Or indeed the unknown male approaching

could overpower her easily and do anything he wanted and she couldn't stop him.

Or is in fact blocking her exit, overpowering her, doing exactly what he wants with her body and she can't stop him.

She felt afraid for the first time.

That fear is acquired by direct experience. I was 'taught' to be afraid by the group of males who cornered me at the age of eight, teaching me in one sharp lesson to be afraid of being alone in an unseen place, and to be afraid when an unknown male approaches. At twelve, another one taught me, it might be fantastic fun to sit at the top of the bus, something you really enjoy, but you can't do it if you're female because if there's no one else up there some bastard male will decide it's a nice opportunity to access the biology you're walking around with it. Your identity, thoughts, opinions, in fact any part of you other than your body, will be of no relevance to him as he does this.

Incidentally both events also taught me that after you've been assaulted there's an issue with being believed, an issue with you being blamed for putting yourself in harm's way and upsetting people by getting assaulted, being hideously ashamed as your assault is discussed with a police officer, and with ho ho ho boys will be boys type responses.

This is in part why I get so very angry with people wittering for highly selfish political reasons about females aren't really oppressed and their femaleness/oppression has nothing to do with their biology.

This is in part why I get so very angry with people wittering for highly selfish political reasons about females aren't really oppressed and their femaleness/oppression has nothing to do with their biology.

I agree.

I wish these "people" would just fuck off. They know exactly who they are.

It's not an easy topic.

'Men's reality regarding safety' is being 4x more likely to be attacked by a stranger and much more likely to be killed/seriously injured. Men need to be much more careful than many are, but our culture discourages them from wanting to look weak - the 'ideal man' trope is often the strong, fearless hero seen in 99% of action films.

I'd rather men sort themselves out rather than worry about 'how women feel', as this would have the biggest impact on reducing violence against both sexes.

Men's reality regarding safety' is being 4x more likely to be attacked by a stranger and much more likely to be killed/seriously injured.

Men are usually injured or killed in mutually violent altercations or through risky/criminal actions.

Women are at risk of sexual violence when just going about their normal life.

Men are usually injured or killed in mutually violent altercations or through risky/criminal actions.

Women are at risk of sexual violence when just going about their normal life.

Any data for that?

Aren't men four times as likely to be attacked or whatever it is easily accounted for because they are more likely to be out and about on the streets after dark?

Men own the night.

Women are at risk of sexual violence when just going about their normal life.

Any data for that?

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017:
"The CSEW estimated that 20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to an estimated 3.4 million female victims and 631,000 male victims."

Men are usually injured or killed in mutually violent altercations or through risky/criminal actions.

Depends how you define mutually violent.
I know a lot of men who have been attacked in pubs (my cousin had his jaw broken), for such mutually violent acts as looking at someone, nudging into someone, having long hair, supposedly looking at someone's girlfriend, walking along a street*, etc.
The police would record them as alcohol related incidents, implying both parties are to blame, but they were all very one sided.

*My ex was walking along with his friend when two approaching men punched them to the ground, without any word of warning.

deydododatdodontdeydo that kind of thing does happen a lot.
A lot of the stabbings are gang related though. These boys aren't stabbing old men, they're stabbing each other (in general).
Drug dealers steal from each other and attack each other. Dog fighters likewise. Being involved in crime increases the risk of being hurt or killed, so criminals being injured regularly must impact on the statistics in some way. That doesn't mean a man who is randomly attacked somehow brought it on himself.
Criminals getting hurt must influence the numbers, men being the vast majority of people on the streets at night likewise, men being more aggressive likewise, to be honest women should be a tiny proportion of violence victims because we are less inclined to put ourselves in dangerous situations, more inclined to acquiesce and pacify, and less inclined to be involved in most crimes.

"The CSEW estimated that 20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to an estimated 3.4 million female victims and 631,000 male victims."

But this doesn't prove that 'Men are usually injured or killed in mutually violent altercations or through risky/criminal actions' like you stated.

The CSEW reports 1.4 million 'assaults against the person' in 2018 alone, with the majority being male, and 69% of homicide victims being male. Men were 4x more likely to be assaulted by a stranger so have more to fear when walking alone.

There no reverse of the message 'boys shouldn't hit girls', which is why it's so common in films for women to belt men around the face, but the reverse is deemed totally unacceptable.