Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

[Ritascornershop]

I have a 19 year old son who is very compassionate and left-wing (I mention that as he’s been indoctrinated in TWAW) but who can’t grasp the discomfort many women feel at men in women’s private spaces.

And recently a friend was telling me that a family member of his (who he has quite the blind spot over) broke up with his girlfriend. The gf had, before she met his family member, been sexually assaulted. She was naturally quite traumatized by the rape but trying to heal and met this guy and got in a relationship with him. The way my friend tells it. his family member broke up with her after a few months (during an argument) & family member “got so uoset” he punched a hole in the wall and broke a chair. She called the police and called friends. My friend seemed to feel she over-reacted! I think any woman would be frightened and that a woman who’d been sexually assaulted would be particularly terrified.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard?

And this gets trotted out. It's vastly amusing seeing in any trans thread the inevitable list of "masculine" things which posters like but which don't mean they aren't still women yet not falling in line with approved FWR behaviour and responses means you must be a man

Like Ariadne in her labyrinth...you have lost me. I haven't a clue exactly what you are trying to say. Something about 'trans threads' and how amusing it all is for you....?

Most of us don't but almost all of us do have a general wariness due to our lived experience

And even that 'wariness' can end up simply being a 'sixth sense' or instinctive caution - due to repetitive experience.

I am paraphrasing, by the way, rather than using exact words. The impact of version 1 is to kindly, thoughtfully disagree. The impact of version 2 is to make women who have had terrible experiences feel like shit. The first encourages, the second belittles

Version 2 definitely comes across as a cat toying with a mouse. No empathy or attempt at fellow feeling at all.

I believe there genuinely are women who have never been on the receiving end of male entitlement and aggression, nor even witnessed it against another women.

But I dont believe they genuinely cant accept that a lot of women have experienced it to one degree or another and why they dont understand why women do all they can to prevent it from happening.

I am s confident got woman, once on a train, s couple of men were smoking in s Mon smoking carriage (a while ago I admit).
I thought perhaps they didn't realise, do went over and quietly mentioned the no smoking sign. They brushed me off like an irritation, I said there was no need to speak to me like that as I was trying to help. They continued until another man went over to them and whispered something to them. They threw their cigarettes out of the window, I ended up shaking, then cried when I got home, I had never felt so vulnerable, and yet it wasn't even a physical threat.

Version 2 definitely comes across as a cat toying with a mouse. No empathy or attempt at fellow feeling at all

It does, and I doubt that anyone who has gone for option 2 will do anything at all with the feedback on how it comes across.

The feeling you conjure up is like the ones I felt when I was 12 and was first harassed in the street by adult men- that I had caused it, and must learn to put up, shut up, not encourage it and learn to cope

Yes, i'm getting that 'creeped out' feeling too; like you are caught up in some one's power trip or twisted fantasy.

I'm not afraid 24/7 - but the threat of sexual violence effects my life, my actions and my mental wellbeing. I would be jubiouse of any woman who says it never has/does. And at times yes I am very afraid.

If a tradesman comes into my house I do consider - what if he makes an advance on me.
I would never walk my dog after dark.
I lock the door when driving at night. I double lock the house doors when home alone at night.
The curtains must be shut at night (dh hates that)
I'm afraid in a taxi on my own.
I won't go out to the bin at night if I'm home alone.
If I hear a noise at night I'm not worried about being robbed I'm worried about being raped. And I have considered I may be in danger if the wrong people (could be anyone could be a neighbour i don't know) discovered my husband works away and I'm alone in the house all week.

But no I don't live in fear - for me that is just the reality of being a woman. You are aware of your vulnerability and you are cautious of dangers. Men won't ever understand that. Yes some may be afraid of getting mugged or beaten up - but the constant looming danger of sexual violence is not somthing most men can understand.

Your son, your friend and other men like them are why we need feminism

I’m constantly on my guard. I’m disabled and vulnerable. I am disgusted by the denial of some posters of our experiences. I am so lucky not to have been raped or beaten. I’ve been in some very sticky situations and have talked and / or fought my way out.

At the secondary school I went to, the sexually desirable girls were grabbed and groped and from my experience seemed to like it. Idk if that was true as we never talked about it. I wasn’t groped because I was skinny with very small breasts. I felt less than. That being groped as you left the classroom being the standard to judge sexual desirability amongst 14/15/16 year olds makes me feel sick. But this is the back drop that some males grow up in.

I'm actually happy that there are women out there that haven't experienced any of this and neither did their friend or family.

However just because they were lucky, and that's all it is luck, doesn't mean they get to sneer at the experiences of other women. Dismiss them. Find it amusing or unbelievable. Think they're oh so superior or forward thinking or having a more fulfilled life because they "don't live in fear".

It's awful for those women who are genuinely living in fear 24/7. Experience will do that.

But for other women it appears to me as if it's like a minor blip on a radar.

The radar sweeps round at a fairly subconscious level. And blips might come and go. But they only start to really go off, when a line is crossed.

If everyone gets off the train carriage and leaves just you and a man. Or if a man swaps bus seats to sit near to you. Or sits close to you, when the bus is empty.

Or starts talking to you, uninvited, in an otherwise empty lift.

A man being violent towards others is very frightening. And hitting walls, banging tables, losing tempers.

Most people know that disciplining children can often involve cancelling a treat as punishment.

And often you only have to do it once. Because thereafter, the threat of 'you won't go to the party if...' will work. Purely because they know you will follow through.

So it's unsurprising that men have the ability to intimidate women with little more than narrowed eyes.

It doesn't have to be them personally who has been violent, when you know that as a group, it's common.

*The impact of version 1 is to kindly, thoughtfully disagree. The impact of version 2 is to make women who have had terrible experiences feel like shit. The first encourages, the second belittles."

I very much hope I am coming across as version 1, although I don't think that completely reflects what I have said as I am not at all disagreeing with the concept of women fearing male behaviour in daily life. I understand and appreciate that such fear is a reality for many women, and that many women have experienced harrassement, assault and worse. If I have come across as thinking anything other than that, then I am very sorry, it wasn't my intention.

I appreciate that I am unusual and lucky, and am grateful for that. A PP mentioned asking why those of us who haven't had those experiences haven't had them. Personally I have absolutely no idea. As I said, in the past I did sometimes think it must be related to why I hadn't had a boyfriend, that there was something awful and ugly and unapproachable about me. Now, I have no idea. I am not aware that I do anything differently to other women I know, and I largely don't avoid certain places or situations (other than long late night walks in the dark as per previous post)

Like Ariadne in her labyrinth...you have lost me. I haven't a clue exactly what you are trying to say. Something about 'trans threads' and how amusing it all is for you....?

Oh dear I'll try to explain. There are countless threads on here asserting that posters do all sorts of things which society deems are masculine (for example the ever popular climbing trees, hating dresses, etc etc ad nauseam) but that doesn't mean they aren't girls.

What is amusing is that despite being so "gender critical non conforming" posts which don't accord with how these "gender critical non conforming feminists" think a woman ouught to think result in the silly "must be a man" trope.

Can't you (general you) see how ridiculous that is? All that talk of refuting "lady brain" yet claiming a woman who doesn't think the way a woman is supposed to must be a man?

It's as ridiculously gender hidebound as any TRA. That is what is amusing.

It’s not about trying to expose posters as “thinking like men”.

It seems to arise when certain posters have experiences that seem so wildly different to what most women here have experienced, and talked about with their friends, who react in ways that seem quite at odds to most women, and most crucially of all, when those posters display an utter indifference to and contempt of those other women’s experiences that makes some posters sometime throw up their hands and go “honestly I dunno, are you a man?”. And then much is made of that, as if anyone here really gives more than a passing thought to such things.

Nobody is pretending to look through the screen and diagnose a man-brain in as much as you can not identify with the substance of the lives of many women here, they feel the same about you I guess?

I personally don’t think you’re a man, I suspect you were a lass and are now a woman, for what that’s worth

AriadneAufNaxos

I've argued that exact point countless times on this board. I've been "accused" of being a man because of how I post, which is ludicrous. How does a man post? Clearly there must be ways that men speak and women speak which is quite amazing really.

Not about how women are supposed to think, it's about the massive lack of empathy and refusal to engage. Apparently it's all about you this thread.

Tbh I don't think you're a man(any of you) just narrow minded,lacking in imagination and emotional intelligence.

Just reading through this thread shows very well why women (who have suffered at the hands of men, or have friends and family who did) might be weary of men,afraid or find themselves in a situation where they suddenly think "oh shit ,is this safe?".

It's not exactly rocket science is it?

It's not exactly

AriadneAufNaxos

It's not the way you think. It's your experience.

It's unusual for a woman. It's not a leap then to think that you may not be one.

I'm sure you are. A woman with an unusual experience.

gender critical non conforming feminists" think a woman ouught to think result in the silly "must be a man" trope

To be honest, without wanting to offend anyone who is on 'the spectrum', but I did consider that as a possibility for you, rather than " it must be a man or a trans woman" The lack of fellow feeling; the lack of social grace; the suggestion that you'd never before experienced any of the things, or in the same way, that the vast majority of women have, and so on.......

You also make some big sweeping generalisations, which you keep repeating, even when told that is not the case; or have people make the effort to explain in some detail to you.......

or when people make the effort to explain in some detail

What are “gender critical non conforming feminists”?

I would have thought feminists, who aren’t gender critical are the non conforming ones. Or does it mean non conforming to TRA’s view of what a feminist is?

What are “gender critical non conforming feminists”

"Women who make me very angry" seems to be the answer. The tone is rather hard to miss.

What exactly am I supposed to be conforming to?

The answer is going to be no, obviously, but always interesting to find out new ways I'm womaning wrong.

My lived experience plus the many discussions I’ve had online on the matter are what make me very sceptical of people online who claim to be women but also claim to not have been regularly sexually harassed and experienced at least “minor” assaults

Yes at best being generous I believe they may be women who are in denial or not acknowledging “minor” incidents - I’ve come across that before in real life, discussions with friends where one has said they’ve never been assaulted but when the discussion develops it turns out they meant no serious assaults, but they had been groped, grabbed, hair pulled, bra strap pinged, skirt lifted etc but in their minds initially these incidents “didn’t count” even if they had felt quite threatening at the time.

We’re trained all too well to accept this shite as “oh well thats just how it is”

I remember having to speak to the school re my dd regularly having her bra pinged by a boy who didn’t like her and was bullying her in other ways too. The MALE head of year was being disgustingly dismissive and minimising the whole thing! Not until I said I’d be taking it higher - much higher & public if necessary and mentioned as a hypothetical how would he like it if I came in and gave him a wedgie did he even START to acknowledge it was unacceptable behaviour.

Boy concerned went on to sexually assault his ex just a few months ago.

The boys who have such behaviour go unchecked are imo clearly likely to get worse!