Surrogacy Resource thread : please post your links here

[FannyCann]

A Happy New Year to all.

I have been thinking about how I should concentrate my energies in the New Year - women are fighting many battles on so many fronts - against porn, prostitution, domestic abuse, the wonderful We Can’t Consent to this campaign, abortion rights, to maintain our spaces, our language, our sports and so much more that I haven’t mentioned.
For myself, I have been asked to join a particular campaign against surrogacy and I have decided that is where I will be devoting most of my time whilst still supporting all the other important causes in spirit at least.

The surrogacy market is a global business currently thought to be worth about $21billion with growth expected to reach about $41billion by 2026 according to India based market research firm Data Bridge. Women’s reproductive “services” are big business globally.

The Law Commission Consultation on new surrogacy law in the UK closed on 11 October 2019.
Many posters on FWR did great work researching, discussing and exploring the implications, educating and raising awareness, encouraging people to respond to the consultation so that responses weren’t simply confined to cheers of approval from “stakeholders” but real concerns and educated critique were raised.

Many of us may be wondering what happens next?

According to the Consultation paper what happens next is this: “After reviewing all responses, we will decide on our final recommendations for law reform, which we will publish in a report, accompanied by a draft bill (legislation) in 2021.”

The consultation, raising awareness and sharing the knowledge was very much the first battle. There is much to be done to follow up to prevent these harmful recommendations becoming law in the UK and to keep that global market out of the UK.

I am not able to give details but I wanted to let people know that there is work ongoing behind the scenes and small positive signs that the Law Commission are belatedly reaching out to some women’s groups who raised concerns.

Meanwhile I believe now is the time to prepare: we have a new parliament with many new MP’s who are no doubt completely unaware, now is the time to start lobbying MP’s and the government in advance if that draft legislation. I plan to hold my nose and meet with my MP, who is a staunch Catholic and who, for all his faults, I expect to take a dim view of the proposals. I will also be sending letters to key people in the government and department of health.

Since I first heard about the Consultation and proposed changes to the law just over a year ago, I have spent many hours reading, articles, legal cases, research papers, listening to podcasts, watching documentaries, reading and contributing to threads here, where so many other contributors share their knowledge and post informative links.

So I thought it might be helpful to have a resource thread, that we can refer to from time to time when looking for articles, research papers and other sources of information, links to FOIs, trying to find that thread where we saw interesting posts and so on.

I will kick off with some links to the consultation and related threads.

Please join in and add anything of interest you come across.

*The Consultation
*
Short summary

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/lawcom-prod-storage-11jsxou24uy7q/uploads/2019/06/Surrogacy-summary.pdf

The Full Consultation Document

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/lawcom-prod-storage-11jsxou24uy7q/uploads/2019/06/Surrogacy-consultation-paper.pdf

Obviously it is too late to respond now as the Consultation is closed, but for reference here is the recommended response to the summary from Nordic Model Now, which many of us used as a template or a guide to help us formulate our own responses.

https://nordicmodelnow.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/surrogacy-consultation-responses-pdf-2.pdff_

Several women’s organisations responded to the consultation with public letters:

Nordic Model Now Open letter:

https://nordicmodelnow.org/2019/10/11/open-letter-to-the-uk-and-scottish-law-commissioners-about-the-surrogacy-consultation/

WPUK submission to Law Commission consultation on surrogacy reform – Woman's Place UK

https://womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/08/wpuk-submission-to-law-commission-consultation-on-surrogacy-reform/

EVAW (End Violence Against Women) response:

https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Letter-on-Surrogacy-.pdf

NIA response:

http://www.niaendingviolence.org.uk/perch/resources/surrogacy-consultation-response-october-2019.pdf

*Links to some of the related threads on FWR:
*
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womensrights/3606313-The-Rumplestiltskin-Laww__
_

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womenss_rights/3613356-All-male-Law-Commission-discussing-surrogacy

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womensrights/3651968-The-illegitimacy-of-the-Rumplestiltskin-Surrogacy-consultationn__

_
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womenss_rights/3706683-SURROGACY-CONSULTATION-ENDS-ON-FRIDAY-11-OCTOBER-PLEASE-SUBMIT-A-RESPONSE-Edited-by-MNHQ-at-OPs-request

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womensrights/3649812-building-families-through-surrogacy-a-new-law-consultationn__

_
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womenss_rights/3698520-Did-everyone-know-that-MN-now-has-a-surrogacy-board

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/3169070-To-think-theres-a-valid-discussion-to-be-had-about-the-ethics-of-surrogacyy_

_
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womenss_rights/3708724-Famous-men-and-surrogacy

And as you say OhHoly it takes time to restore iron reserves and recover from a birth. The old midwives saying was "it takes nine months to make a baby and nine months to recover".
I'm sure we all know women who have unintentionally got pregnant again very soon after a birth, and it certainly brings its challenges, but when limiting a family to two or three I wouldn't think it would be much of a problem for most healthy women if the previous pregnancy and birth had gone well. But for serial surrogacy it has to be damaging to health.

Can't remember if I posted this upthread, but this woman had seven babies in eight years, including a life threatening haemorrhage and trio to ICU after the fifth. (Not counting the two births of her own children previously). No chance for muscles and ligaments to recover, and the demands on her calcium and iron reserves will mean she is vulnerable to anaemia and other problems.

‘I love giving birth. This is my seventh surrogate baby’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a5a8dbd8-4ac5-11eb-81f9-1b786036a268?shareToken=d28842dc223c6ab72da54ed188952e42

payment being capped at £750

I saw costs being suggested as around £20k for a surrogate parent - is that for when they're paying someone overseas, perhaps?

No payment of £750 is for egg donation.

For surrogacy it's "expenses" which are averaging about £15,000 with a few topping £20,000.

'Expenses' for sperm donation is capped at £35 so the huge difference between that and egg donation recognises the vast difference between the two processes but I suspect the maximum for both is encouraged that you reach it regardless of how much it actually cost to get to a clinic etc.

It would be interesting to know whether any medical negligence cases for egg donation have ever been filed in the US or the U.K. I don't want to derail this thread as donor gametes are connected but this is a very interesting and shocking account of egg donation in the US. As clinics can advertise in the U.K. it is worrying to think of similar things happening here.

I don't think a resource thread is a zombie thread is it?
So just adding some new links to the thread and reviving it for anyone interested. Time has moved in quite a bit since I started it. But the Law Commission are due to present their recommendations to parliament later this year..

Here's an interesting report on the market in Georgia. The reporter is obviously concerned about the women but feels they are desperate for money and perhaps it's not for us (? Foreign powers? ) to be judgemental and deprive them of this opportunity to earn money.

www.channel4.com/news/georgias-booming-baby-market

This prize winning essay gives an excellent explanation of the feminist view point I think. Sorry if I've previously posted it up thread, I have t read it all through.

I particularly like her closing paragraph.

"Law and policy is developing and changing across the world and it is vital that the rights of women and children are always the foremost consideration. I have argued for an abolitionist approach because a regulatory harm reduction approach does not advance the aim of feminism. Industrialising patriarchal norms is not compatible with a political movement that demands the emancipation of all women. Feminism cannot succeed by sacrificing the most disenfranchised women to patriarchy, restricting its interest to making improvements to the conditions of their abuse. Surrogacy must be prohibited."

objectnow.org/how-do-altruistic-and-commercial-surrogacy-affect-the-rights-of-women-and-children/

An excellent article that gives a good overview of some of the issues.

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=verilymag.com/2021/01/surrogacy-altruistic-commercial-exploitation-women-children-2021

Sorry, the previous link doesn't work. Here's the link.

verilymag.com/2021/01/surrogacy-altruistic-commercial-exploitation-women-children-2021

And this link to an article about getting the costs of surrogacy down.

Of course this where commercial surrogacy leads. Negotiating with surrogate mothers (sorry, carriers) to get the costs down.

"we gravitated toward a first-timer, with the rationale that the compensation was significantly less (about $20,000), she would be anxious to get started (read: open to negotiation)"

For "open to negotiation" I think we can safely read "less aware of her rights/easier to bully"

www.fertilityiq.com/topics/cost/how-i-saved-usd50-000-on-surrogacy

There is also some discussion about how she saved money on medical insurance with the second surrogacy. For various reasons she decided that medical costs were low in early pregnancy and so arranged to pay direct until 24 weeks and then instigate a policy.
She was lucky. That was a massive gamble. If her surrogate mother had had a septic miscarriage or pulmonary embolus for instance she could have found herself paying out huge amounts.

I archived that article as it's currently causing a bit of a storm on twitter so thought it needed keeping safe incase of deletion or the host website locking it down.

archive.ph/2022.01.03-165118/www.fertilityiq.com/topics/cost/how-i-saved-usd50-000-on-surrogacy

I couldn't finish the "How I Saved..." article. It is absolutely sickening.

I couldn't either justaftb

This I could just about stomach.

"Demand has surged since 2015 when Thailand, India, and Nepal outlawed commercial surrogacy following reports of widespread exploitation of women."

www.indiatimes.com/explainers/news/ukraine-the-baby-factory-of-the-world-558590.html

Adding some recent threads to log:

General discussion www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4349518-Surrogacy-makes-me-very-uncomfortable

Cristina & Gallip Ozturk - multiple surrogate born babies
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4164145-To-think-there-is-something-wrong-11-kids-at-23-and-wants-surrogates-to-grow-the-rest

MP, Liz Kendall
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4410302-Liz-Kendall-baby-by-surrogacy

Amber Heard
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4286251-To-feel-uncomfortable-with-celebrity-surrogacy?pg=14

Naomi Campbell
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4248703--With-science-I-can-have-a-baby-whenever-I-want

Ollie Locke
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4439150-Ollie-Gareth-Locke-Surrogacy

Travelling Surrogate, Kim - surrogacy for the maternity leave
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4412214-to-think-maternity-leave-was-not-intended-for-this

I've noticed a recent trend in the media concerning surrogacy laws, or the lack of, in Ireland recently. It makes sense as it would follow what happened in the UK ahead of, and during, the public consultation there was a lot of coverage on surrogacy and human interest stories featured heavily. There was little to none that were critical of surrogacy and so far, I'd say it's the same for Ireland.

Here are some articles...

Brian Dowling "Only one name can go on the birth cert and then the person who's not the biological father has to wait for guardianship for two years and it's just ridiculous."

www.rsvplive.ie/news/celebs/brian-dowling-slams-ridiculous-obscene-25841513
Dowling and his husband have been trying to adopt
"“Adoption is so tricky and we realised we would age out and surrogacy is very complicated in Ireland. I rang up somewhere looking for advice and they were so dismissive,” shares Brian.
“Regardless of whether you are gay or straight, so many people experience fertility issues. What makes it harder is that we just don’t have the right equipment...It is draining and it is an emotional rollercoaster,” he admits. “I think in Ireland we need to do better in terms of fertility advice and surrogacy."
www.sundayworld.com/showbiz/irish-showbiz/brian-dowling-and-hubby-arthur-open-up-about-adopting-a-child-podcasting-and-living-in-ireland-41150467.html

Advice or making surrogacy more widely available? Are they infertile? They don't have the right equipment so they need to hire it in...?

Mark from Westlife says something similar...
www.thesun.ie/tvandshowbiz/8018823/westlife-mark-feehily-slams-surrogacy-laws-ireland-unfair/

Chris de Bourgh's Daughter, Roseanna bought a baby girl from Ukraine after multiple miscarriages, she since went on to have naturally conceived twin boys (I always wonder if she treats them the same). She is lobbying hard or law reform, again, as with the law reform in the UK, the current laws are called 'archaic'.

extra.ie/2021/12/28/entertainment/celebrity/rosanna-davidson-wants-change-to-archaic-irish-in-the-new-year

and here
www.thesun.ie/tvandshowbiz/8123903/rosanna-davison-hopes-ireland-surrogacy-laws-changes/

and here
www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/irish-showbiz/rosanna-davison-told-husband-i-25756239

and here with the BBC
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59733005

and here, talking about having 'survivor's guilt' after miscarriage (I thought that was a term more approrpiately applied to terrorism incidents or natural disasters)
www.her.ie/celeb/rosanna-davison-says-feels-survivor-guilt-pregnancy-loss-543735

Then there are stories from Irish residents who aren't celebrities:
"Hilary who stressed hundreds of women and their families are impacted by the Irish legislation that recognises the birth mum as one of the legal guardians, said: “We need a culture where all children are included and treated equally and they’re not at the moment."
"Hilary is a member of Irish Families Through Surrogacy (IFTS) and the group has been campaigning so the Government’s Assisted Human Reproduction Bill will include international surrogacy provisions. Last week IFTS families and kids along with Equality for Children, Rainbow Family Equality Network, NISIG, Irish Gay Dads, Independent Living Movement Ireland and LGBT Ireland demonstrated outside Leinster House."
www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-mum-twins-says-children-25433776

More on the protests
www.sundayworld.com/news/irish-news/families-gather-outside-leinster-house-in-call-for-international-surrogacy-legislation-41008716.html

and another surrogacy story from the non-famous
www.rsvplive.ie/news/tv-film/tonight-show-viewers-thank-kilkenny-25383643

Irish Judge awards parental rights via adoption to Irish man in same sex couple who bought a baby from America. Commercial surrogacy isn't permitted in Ireland (or UK), but those who procure babies from abroad rarely face prosecution.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/campaigners-hail-gay-couples-wins-in-surrogacy-cases-0skgxcc6s

There are issues with registering childn born through surrogacy in Ireland as shown here, with passports

gcn.ie/minister-irish-passport-parents/

And the Irish Government approves committee to launch investigation/review into international surrogacy

www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-approves-committee-to-investigate-international-surrogacy-1.4751435

and more here
www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/2021/11-november/ethics-of-commercial-surrogacy-to-be-probed-by-oireachtas-unit

I would not be at all surprised if pro-surrogacy activists and surrogacy families were successful and did achieve surrogacy law in Ireland, perhaps off the back of the Repeal the 8th campaign, citing body autonomy and a woman's right to do what she wants with her body as just one of the arguments, along with the right of men to have access to the 'right equipment' so they can have their desires met.

Should it pass, not only would commercial international surrogacy be made easier but also surrogacy in Ireland, perhaps with new agencies and the chance for existing UK agencies to open offices there. If commercial surrogacy is only available to those who can afford international access, isn't that discriminatory to those who can't?

Interesting podcast from an altruistic surrogate who is also a health care professional.

She sounds very sad about the experience. she says all the positive things, but my perception is that she is saying one thing and feeling another.

Interesting that she fell pregnant with her own baby weeks after delivering her sister's.

anchor.fm/atyourcervix/episodes/Season-1-Ep-12-My-Surrogacy-Journey-with-Katie-Richardson-e13pj8o

Thanks for that podcast Vivarium, I listened with great interest. The distance between the sisters (Ireland and New Zealand) created practical and logistical difficulties, especially as the commissioning parents flew out in order to gain entry before lockdown and then had to stay, but it contributed to the sister surrogate mother (Kate) as she recovered from the birth "I do wonder if the distance is good for my healing". Though her children missed their Aunt and Uncle as they had been in their lives I imagine nearly every day for 6 months, then they were gone. (Her kids were 2 and 4 so time, the terrible twos must have been tricky with the difficult surrogate pregnancy.)

The fact that their father died around the time the sisters were discussing this, and they found a bucket list promise he made to "get Amy a baby", and the fact that Amy had cervical cancer aged 25 and Kate is the youngest of 4, I imagine, perhaps just subconciously, all contributed to the decision to go ahead.

The surrogacy pregnancy sounded awful, Kate said it was different from before, and that her "body knew" it wasn't her egg. She said she had migraines, serious morning sickness...her counsellor said she was so focused on the physical, she ignored the emotional. You can see how some surrogate mothers experience something similar to PTSD when you disassociate from your body like that.

It was fascinating because Kate has such a specialised job in pelvic health, had two vaginal births and will now have another (elective) C section with her 4th child. The emotional side was touched on too. Kate said she was "broken" by the second day of labour, that it was "very hard to deliver someone elses baby", that she felt an emotional connection to the baby she is currently pregnant with at the time of the podcast), during the surrogacy pregnancy and that she felt relief at the end as it was like "doing a job".

It ends with the quite important detail I think that she had pelvic floor issues before the surrogacy pregnancy, that she would never take it back but never do it again and of course the obligatory 2you're an inspiration" comments from the presenters, though they were very congratulatory, they did gently probe to see whether the experience had been positive or negative.

I'm not sure how you could ever say out loud that you regretted it when you did it for your sister and if you said you did regret it you are essentially saying you wish you had never given birth to your niece, so your niece wouldn't be here...

How could you ever say that if it were true?

I did some rooting around and found what I think is a fascinating thread from 2010, with Dittany, a long-gone poster and others who are no longer on these boards, surrogate mothers and commissioning mothers as well as one woman who considered surrogacy but did have her own children, who explores the perceptions of surrogacy within feminism.

It's so long ago it's really interesting to see how things have changed (and how they have stayed the same).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1014511-Surrogacy-and-feminism?pg=2&messages=100

Another glowing article on surrogacy on the media, this time on a prolific surrogate mother who appears to be 'addicted' (but isn't doing it for the money).

Single mum of 4, has had 5 surrogacy pregnancies in 11 years, and is planning to get pregnant with her 10th. Her most recent pregnancy was twins. Her youngest child is 2 so the surrogacy pregnancies have been between her two youngest children. Her own family was not complete when she embarked on having children for others which is generally not the advice from surrogacy agencies (or at least that's what it used to be, with low 'stock' rules have been relaxed so to maintain or boost the numbers.)

All the surrogacy pregnancies have been with eggs that aren't hers so I imagine it highly likely that she would have have had to introduce multiple rounds of IVF and anti-rejection drugs. She is planing the 10th surrogacy pregnancy for a single man and is doing so having lost 5 stone for health reasons.

"Once you see the baby in their arms you can see that unconditional love immediately. It is just so worth it. That feeling can be slightly addictive."

"She said: "People think I would be attached to the baby. Of course, I want to keep that baby safe, but you don't have the same feelings (you have) towards your own child when you are pregnant with someone else's," she says."

""I never rule anything out, I play everything by ear. I have always coped well with pregnancy and have had straightforward births."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/family-kids/mum-addicted-surrogacy-prepares-10th-25905336

She's only 33 @OhHolyJesus , she could do this several times more and probably will, she says she wants to keep on helping people...

As an aside - lovely holiday picture. Of course a post birth gift of a holiday doesn't count as payment but is very much part of a surrogacy deal.

That's true Fanny, though I worry about the toll 9, 10 or 11, 12 pregnancies takes on your body. I'm not sure playing everything by ear is the right approach to such a serious undertaking. If Laura were to begin to experience difficult pregnancies or even miscarriages would she stop or would her 'addiction' override listening to her body?

More media fluff, only this time, 3 women have been involved. The first surrogate mother miscarried at 20 weeks, the second, a friend had a son, the third is the husband's sister who is due when the baby boy will be 6 months old.

The commissioning mother says: ""At the time, I suppose John wasn't even born yet either, and we were hopeful that this baby would take. But I had said to my husband we either will end up with two healthy babies that come home with us, or we could end up with one or none. And I think we just need to be happy with this because emotionally, how do you go through it over and over and over?""

So instead of putting all your eggs in one basket you spread them around the wombs of several women and see what sticks and not to worry about the consequences.

I think this should be called 'simultaneous surrogacy'. There, I just made it up.

U.K. Prolific surrogate mother Carole Horlick speaks about the son she gave away.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/worlds-most-prolific-surrogate-mum-25917978

She and her husband had sex during the surrogacy arrangement (seems fair enough) and used contraception which failed. The artificial insemination must have failed as she was already pregnant. The couple were angry as a DNA test revealed that the commissioning father wasn't genetically related to the baby boy. They decided to keep him (after all the time and money invested?) Carole Horlick and her husband Paul would have had him if they didn't but didn't want him back as such, only if he was going to be rejected by the people who paid her 'expenses'.

They lost contact, Horlick is in contact with all the other families she claims, but not this one. She says she and her husband think about their son and have registered on the adoption network with the hopes that he will find them one day.

Will he have been told about what happened, would he have asked why he maybe experiences genealogical bewilderment and notices differences between himself and his parents, maybe siblings too?

@OhHolyJesus - the baby boy was Paul Horlick's? And they gave him away because of the finances?

That's a pickle.

Yes, @OhHolyJesus, I was interested in the podcast, she spoke very well, but, sounded as taut like a violin string.

This is a woman with a lot of education and insight into pregnancy and women's bodies. And they all got counselling, so they were very sensible - I hope they explored whether the family circumstances created a loving, but coercive, situation. The story wouldn't be out of place on the Stately Homes thread from a FOG POV.

I hope her sister doesn't decide that what she really, really wants is a sibling for her baby.

she spoke very well, but, sounded as taut like a violin string

She did, that's exactly how she sounded.

It certainly would be very difficult to say no to a new request for another baby, for a sibling - to 'complete' their family. She did it before so she can do it again right?

Sophie Beresiner has written about doing another 'journey' with her one remaining embryo in frozen storage in Russia (no pressure then, new surrogate mother), and the woman who had a baby girl for her has said she doesn't want to do it again. I always wonder if their 'friendship' remains as close after the baby has been handed over, but if it does, would it be the same if you said "no, sorry, not again".