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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surrogacy Resource thread : please post your links here

254 replies

FannyCann · 01/01/2020 11:25

A Happy New Year to all.

I have been thinking about how I should concentrate my energies in the New Year - women are fighting many battles on so many fronts - against porn, prostitution, domestic abuse, the wonderful We Can’t Consent to this campaign, abortion rights, to maintain our spaces, our language, our sports and so much more that I haven’t mentioned.
For myself, I have been asked to join a particular campaign against surrogacy and I have decided that is where I will be devoting most of my time whilst still supporting all the other important causes in spirit at least.

The surrogacy market is a global business currently thought to be worth about $21billion with growth expected to reach about $41billion by 2026 according to India based market research firm Data Bridge. Women’s reproductive “services” are big business globally.

The Law Commission Consultation on new surrogacy law in the UK closed on 11 October 2019.
Many posters on FWR did great work researching, discussing and exploring the implications, educating and raising awareness, encouraging people to respond to the consultation so that responses weren’t simply confined to cheers of approval from “stakeholders” but real concerns and educated critique were raised.

Many of us may be wondering what happens next?

According to the Consultation paper what happens next is this: “After reviewing all responses, we will decide on our final recommendations for law reform, which we will publish in a report, accompanied by a draft bill (legislation) in 2021.”

The consultation, raising awareness and sharing the knowledge was very much the first battle. There is much to be done to follow up to prevent these harmful recommendations becoming law in the UK and to keep that global market out of the UK.

I am not able to give details but I wanted to let people know that there is work ongoing behind the scenes and small positive signs that the Law Commission are belatedly reaching out to some women’s groups who raised concerns.

Meanwhile I believe now is the time to prepare: we have a new parliament with many new MP’s who are no doubt completely unaware, now is the time to start lobbying MP’s and the government in advance if that draft legislation. I plan to hold my nose and meet with my MP, who is a staunch Catholic and who, for all his faults, I expect to take a dim view of the proposals. I will also be sending letters to key people in the government and department of health.

Since I first heard about the Consultation and proposed changes to the law just over a year ago, I have spent many hours reading, articles, legal cases, research papers, listening to podcasts, watching documentaries, reading and contributing to threads here, where so many other contributors share their knowledge and post informative links.

So I thought it might be helpful to have a resource thread, that we can refer to from time to time when looking for articles, research papers and other sources of information, links to FOIs, trying to find that thread where we saw interesting posts and so on.

I will kick off with some links to the consultation and related threads.

Please join in and add anything of interest you come across.

*The Consultation
*
Short summary

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/lawcom-prod-storage-11jsxou24uy7q/uploads/2019/06/Surrogacy-summary.pdf

The Full Consultation Document

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/lawcom-prod-storage-11jsxou24uy7q/uploads/2019/06/Surrogacy-consultation-paper.pdf

Obviously it is too late to respond now as the Consultation is closed, but for reference here is the recommended response to the summary from Nordic Model Now, which many of us used as a template or a guide to help us formulate our own responses.

https://nordicmodelnow.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/surrogacy-consultation-responses-pdf-2.pdff_

Several women’s organisations responded to the consultation with public letters:

Nordic Model Now Open letter:

https://nordicmodelnow.org/2019/10/11/open-letter-to-the-uk-and-scottish-law-commissioners-about-the-surrogacy-consultation/

WPUK submission to Law Commission consultation on surrogacy reform – Woman's Place UK

https://womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/08/wpuk-submission-to-law-commission-consultation-on-surrogacy-reform/

EVAW (End Violence Against Women) response:

https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Letter-on-Surrogacy-.pdf

NIA response:

http://www.niaendingviolence.org.uk/perch/resources/surrogacy-consultation-response-october-2019.pdf

*Links to some of the related threads on FWR:
*
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womensrights/3606313-The-Rumplestiltskin-Laww__
_

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womenss_rights/3613356-All-male-Law-Commission-discussing-surrogacy

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womensrights/3651968-The-illegitimacy-of-the-Rumplestiltskin-Surrogacy-consultationn__

_
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womenss_rights/3706683-SURROGACY-CONSULTATION-ENDS-ON-FRIDAY-11-OCTOBER-PLEASE-SUBMIT-A-RESPONSE-Edited-by-MNHQ-at-OPs-request

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womensrights/3649812-building-families-through-surrogacy-a-new-law-consultationn__

_
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womenss_rights/3698520-Did-everyone-know-that-MN-now-has-a-surrogacy-board

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/3169070-To-think-theres-a-valid-discussion-to-be-had-about-the-ethics-of-surrogacyy_

_
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womenss_rights/3708724-Famous-men-and-surrogacy

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Thread gallery
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FannyCann · 12/01/2020 17:34

@AutumnRose1 The Consultation wasn't exactly well advertised. It seems to be the case with public consultations that they only really seek the views of "stakeholders". Where stakeholders are people who would benefit from the proposed changes - in this case people who would like to use a surrogate, women who might be considering being a surrogate and people who will profit along the way, eg lawyers, ivf clinics and agencies.

Here's a couple of articles which give some background and explain some of the proposals and the issues relating to them.

Who better than men to rule on the delicate subject of surrogacy? | Catherine Bennett | Opinion | The Guardian

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/09/who-better-than-men-to-rule-on-delicate-subject-of-surrogacy-law-commission

The Law Commission’s Surrogacy Consultation: How to bamboozle through a dangerous new law – Nordic Model Now!

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/15/the-law-commissions-surrogacy-consultation-how-to-bamboozle-through-a-dangerous-new-law/

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FannyCann · 12/01/2020 17:36

My spacing/formatting seems to keep going wrong, I do apologise, so where the title for a second item runs into the link for the previous one. Sorry for any confusion.

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FannyCann · 13/01/2020 21:28

More cautionary tales

One of my many concerns about surrogacy is lack of safeguarding. These horrific cases show how easy it is for Paedophiles to just go buy them selves a baby to abuse.

Warning - very upsetting content.

www.federalcircuitcourt.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/bff837bb-f619-4510-9807-9dfe2fe88422/International+Commercial+Surrogacy+and+the+risk+of+abuse.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CONVERT_TO=url&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-bff837bb-f619-4510-9807-9dfe2fe88422-lpYcMc7

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/may/19/man-who-sexually-abused-surrogate-twin-baby-daughters-jailed-for-22-years

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FannyCann · 13/01/2020 21:30

Sorry, reposting links separately, hopefully they will work this way.

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/may/19/man-who-sexually-abused-surrogate-twin-baby-daughters-jailed-for-22-years

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FannyCann · 13/01/2020 21:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsSnippyPants · 13/01/2020 21:33

I've had to step away from that Simple Politics Facebook page, the number of references to 'ovens' and 'renting bodies' was making me nauseous Sad. I despair of some people, the dehumanising way they talk about women.

FannyCann · 13/01/2020 21:36

God that's awful Snippy
Are these women talking like this?
Such ignorance. I'm afraid I struggle to enter into any type of civilised discussion when I perceive people to be so ignorant. Sad

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FannyCann · 13/01/2020 21:38

I can't seem to make this link to an Australian Family Law paper work. Last try.
Screen shot of first page. It's quite easy to find on google.

www.federalcircuitcourt.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/bff837bb-f619-4510-9807-9dfe2fe88422/International+Commercial+Surrogacy+and+the+risk+of+abuse.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CONVERT_TO=url&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-bff837bb-f619-4510-9807-9dfe2fe88422-lpYcMc7

Surrogacy Resource thread : please post your links here
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OhHolyJesus · 13/01/2020 21:56

Jesus Christ that story Fanny there was a wife, he "masqueraded as a woman online" and he abused them as babies?

Not related to surrogacy but I saw a story at the weekend of a man sharing pics of his daughter in the womb with the promise of making her available to paedophiles. In his defence argument he said he would not offer her but would find other children. I just can't.

Not wanting to derail as this is a resources thread...So

An old story but a positive one, the surrogate gets to keep the babies

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-423125/Surrogate-mother-says-Sorry-Im-keeping-babies.html

More history, Kim Cotton, thought to be the worlds first surrogate, had "Baby Cotton" (so her surname) before commercial surrogacy laws were brought in. I read this as a general gripe at social media and how it is affecting her business (run by donations and membership fees - if you don't join you don't get full access) and how the laws are ever so old fashioned...I wonder if KC was involved with the Law Commission on the consultation?

www.ivfbabble.com/2018/04/britains-first-surrogate-mother-kim-cotton-calls-update-antiquated-uk-surrogacy-laws/

FannyCann · 13/01/2020 22:22

God that's horrendous OhHolyJesus

Kim Cotton runs Cots doesn't she? Pretty sure they have been heavily involved with the consultation. They also get referenced in some of the NHS policies I've looked at.

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FannyCann · 13/01/2020 22:27

A different Australian family court document about commercial surrogacy and trafficking.
Cites various examples of shocking abuse.

And this from a child of surrogacy:

"Commodification also affects the child’s sense of worth. While views and experiences vary, a now-adult surrogate child highlighted the pain of commodification thus:
“I don’t care why my parents or my mother did this. It looks to me like I was bought and sold.... When you exchange something for [m]oney it is called a commodity. Babies are not commodities. Babies are human beings. How do you think this makes us feel to know that there was money exchanged for us? . . .Because somewhere between [the] narcissistic, selfish or desperate need for a child and the desire to make a buck, everyone else’s needs and wants are put before the kids’ needs. We, the children of surrogacy, become lost.”

https://www.actlawsociety.asn.au/documents/item/3222

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OhHolyJesus · 13/01/2020 22:35

Yes she founded COTS and still runs it, it seems, but their website appears to be closed to new users and they have moved to use FB more, slightly ironic given that article, if you can't beat them join 'em?!

It's not hard to see how one-sided something can become when no alternative views are sought out.

I wonder how many members they have, once you have your baby and the surrogate has gone off with her 'expenses' money there's no reason to keep your membership is there, so they must always be searching for new income...

FannyCann · 13/01/2020 22:42

Cots are right in with the NHS guidelines for "Care in Surrogacy"

Careinsurrogacy-guidanceforthecareof_surrogates
Mohindra, Raj

Surrogacy Resource thread : please post your links here
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FannyCann · 13/01/2020 22:47

Sorry, another link I can't make work!Envy It's NHS policy document.

Surrogacy Resource thread : please post your links here
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OhHolyJesus · 13/01/2020 22:48

Oh no and Brilliant Beginnings, supporters of Stonewall and Mermaids (linked on their website). They were on the brief for the consultation too. Fingers. In. Pies.

MrsSnippyPants · 13/01/2020 22:54

Mostly men Fanny but women are liking their comments Sad

MrsSnippyPants · 13/01/2020 23:02

The level of the debate:

"They aren’t dragging women off the street and pupping them up ya know"

"If you made a cake and didn't have an oven to cook it in, but a friend said you could use her oven as long as you paid for the electric... You wouldn't be buying the cake. You would be renting the oven.
It's your eggs and flour, sugar and butter...
These babies are their biological parents eggs and sperm, their DNA, their baby.
No one is buying a baby, they just don't have a working womb to grown it in..."

"If your friend changed her mind last minute, and refused to give you the cake once cooked as she thought it looked nice and wanted it for herself... She would be stealing your cake.
Maybe put in terms that aren't so emotionally charged for many people, it can be seen more logically."

"Ever been to a laundrette... Imagine if they wouldn't give you your clothes back because their machines washed them and they grew attached.
Doesn't make those clothes belong to laundrette"

And honestly, this is one of the more sane political pages on Facebook, generally the debate is quite polite and restrained. I have never seen it sink to this level before apart from one other subject.

BadgertheBodger · 13/01/2020 23:08

That is revolting MrsSnippy Sad

I despair sometimes. Women genuinely aren’t human to so many people.

FannyCann · 13/01/2020 23:27

Grim MrsSnippy People who are undoubtedly entirely unsuitable to be parents. Sad

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OhHolyJesus · 14/01/2020 07:19

You eat a cake. A cake is not a baby. A woman is not an oven. No wonder we still have the patriarchy when people think like this FFS.

DCIRozHuntley · 14/01/2020 09:25

The DNA is just the recipe, the surrogate provides the ingredients. The baby is literally her flesh and blood.

JoanOfQuarks · 14/01/2020 22:21

Thanks for doing this FannyCann. I’ll try to gather some info. Agree this is such an important issue that needs as much public scrutiny as possible.

OhHolyJesus · 18/01/2020 08:48

Just seen this. Her second surrogacy.

www.foxla.com/news/california-mother-of-two-dies-giving-another-family-the-gift-of-life

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