M&S Changing rooms incident: "It'll upset the men."

[Desiderata44]

Remember the office of Steve Rowe, CEO of Marks and Spencer, and store managers issued statements recently?

• there is no such thing as men and women's changing rooms in Marks and Spencer any more
• anybody can use any changing room they wish/felt "most comfortable" doing

I went into a large M&S a few days ago with my partner. I ended up joining him in the menswear department to help him with his shop, with a couple of items to try on for myself.

Seeing no signs for a woman's changing room, and with a changing room right in front of me, I remembered what every single M&S statement has told us in the last couple of months and went to the changing room.

I was refused access by three assistants.
"This is the men's changing rooms."
But M&S doesn't have gendered changing rooms any more, that's what they've said.
"We've not heard anything about that."
Really? It's been all over the news.
"No, you have to use the women's."
But you're allowing men into women's changing rooms, so why can't I come here?
"Because it'll upset the men."
What about the upset caused to women by having men come into our changing rooms?
"We don't know anything about that."
So you're refusing me access to this changing room?
"This is the men's changing room."

I walk the length of the store and find the lingerie changing room.
When I left I asked the assistants there about the policy.
They knew nothing about Steve Rowe's new changing room policy.
They said they were horrified to think that men would be allowed to come into the lingerie changing rooms, given they have women and young girls trying on bras.
The manager checked with his superiors. "No store in this whole area would allow men to go into women's changing rooms".
But your Head Office is telling biological men that they can.
The assistant were horrified.
They re-iterated that their changing rooms are NOT genderless, and that they have very clear men and women's changing rooms. One assistant said they had been told in the other women's changing rooms, that if a biological man was dressed as a woman, they'd have to let him in, but most definitely never in the lingerie changing rooms where vulnerable young girls and women would be.

Likewise, every single Marks and Spencer website online chat operator that I have contacted has expressed their horror at the thought of men being allowed into women's changing rooms, no matter what identity they choose to believe they are, and one said, "Absolutely not, it would never be allowed to happen."

So Marks and Spencer refuses me access to a changing room because "it'll upset the men", but its Executive Office and official policy allows men into women's changing rooms with no care at all if it'll upset us. In the middle of this are perfectly decent shop assistants being pulled in all directions by their own consciences and sense of outrage and discomfort, and mixed messages internally.

Who exactly in Marks and Spencer thinks this is ok?

Yet every M&S online helpchat person I asked about this expressed their horror that men would be allowed into women's changing rooms, no matter how "comfortable" they felt about doing so?

The assistants in the Leeds one last year didn't bat an eyelid at the bloke in the lingerie changing room queue next to me. He was cunningly disguised though in fishnets and sparkly shoes

I have tried on bras in the men's changing room in Scunthorpe by mistake however. Nobody told me off.

This shows that they have not been consistent in the policy update roll-out and that staff are not fully trained and it shows the flaws as a man dressed in fishnets is a man and would be let into the woman's changing rooms and has been let into the lingerie changing rooms, so what's the difference if a woman goes into the men's? Oh it upsets the men...I see.

The reply I received on behalf of CEO mid-Nov

"As a business, we strive to be inclusive and therefore, we allow customers the choice of which fitting room they feel comfortable to use, in respect of how they identify themselves. This is an approach other retailers and leisure facilities have also adopted.

"We understand your concerns and I want to make it clear that if any customer was to act inappropriately or cause intentional offence, the necessary action would be taken"

That reply is the same cut-and-paste that Steve Rowe's office is sending everyone. All their statements are identical to this too.

If you ask the CEO's team any question which their cut-and-paste reply wouldn't address, or express any concern as a woman and ask them to address your concerns, they refuse to reply at all.

But try as a woman to go into their new "gender-free" changing rooms, and you'll be refused because It'll upset the men.

Yes, both my replies were ignored

I would print up that email response, take it into M&S, and then present it to any employee who tried to stop me from entering the men's. "I identify as a man and therefore feel most comfortable in this changing area."

I am kind of an asshole, though.

I would do the same as Lydia - I had the same response and no reply when I asked if signage was going to make that statement expressly clear. Haven't heard back so haven't shopped there since and told them why but as they don't care about women I'm not surprised they haven't replied.

Their staff are and will be as horrified as us, but they have to work there and enforce these rules so at the very least they should be made aware of them.

What a M&eSs

I've had a boycott on them this Christmas because of their official policy (would usually have spent £££) so they've lost my custom over a policy which is completely inconsistent with the reality on the shop floor.

More fool them.

I personally would not like a man on the women’s changing room or the one that children use .
I read about some weirdo installing a camera in a mixed sex changing room and watching from his home . ( yes I know a woman could do this too)

It's difficult though as I wouldn't want to aggravate the staff who mostly seem to be currently still acting as we would wish

I was very uncomfortable in a Debenhams changing room recently, near naked and could hear a man right outside my curtain. He was with his partner and then another woman's partner also came in. I didn't challenge it as I felt vulnerable in my state of undress. Somewhere else (not sure which shop) said I could go into any changing room as no longer male/female, at least they had cubicle doors that could lock! In Next there is often a male attendant in the female changing room which I didn't feel comfortable with.

I am glad to hear that the staff on the shopfloor have more sense than the CEO but not at all surpised.

So M&S are saying one thing as their official policy line, but employing completely different practices in their stores on a day-to-day level.

One of two things are the case: either policy hasn't filtered through to general staff on an individual store level, or their managing body are being completely disingenuous in playing to a vociferous, aggressive, minority audience, in the meantime continuing to do what they've always done.

Neither way is particularly conducive to good customer relations.

I doubt M&S will be around in 3 years time, so whatever they do is doomed to irrelevance anyway. By the same token BHS had the best policies in the world ....

I doubt M&S will be around in 3 years time

Why don't they just do the bleeding obvious and convert to being a supermarket with an Asda or Sainsburys size clothing department.

Why don't they just do the bleeding obvious and convert to being a supermarket with an Asda or Sainsburys size clothing department.

Menswear aside, there is a negligible quality difference. M&S’s pursuit of fast fashion and hideous frilly polyester/acrylic has been disastrous for its previous USP of quality, British made clothing.

FFS at upset the men

I wish someone would get this stuff on camera and out there, it’s bonkers

OP - you came across some of the many decent people who work at M & S. People who put customers first and are not seduced by toxic activist groups offering rainbow awards and expensive dinners to those who remove the safety of women and children in favour of men without boundaries. Like RuffleCrow we had an M & S free Christmas and have found that not only was their food not missed but cancelling the M & S account has already had a positive impact on finances.

It is worth noting that they haven't been able to find any words to explain how forcing women to have their lingerie fittings in cubicles next to men enhances women's privacy, safety or dignity - hence their policy of just ignoring all questions from their customers (or ex customers).

'In Next there is often a male attendant in the female changing room which I didn't feel comfortable with.'

But the whole point is you can poke your head out and ask for a different sized top or whatever without having to put all your clothes back on.

I don't think many women would feel happy asking a man this while half dressed, even with the curtain pulled around their head in the classic style

This will lose them sales won't it?

You could well be right about that, @MarieIVanArkleStinks!

However, this is just the kind of talking-both-sides-of-their face flannelling that JC (O, the irony) tried, about the Equality Act, IIRC, before Dawn Butler broke ranks and undermined it.

This lack of transparency must not stand in a democracy. There can't be unwritten rules and laws unless your "inclusiveness" is really just "in crowd clusiveness"

You should have pretended you were trans therefore a man and get them slated for 'transphobia'. Topshop Travis in reverse. But that would be unwomanly woudln't it.

I feel bad for the employees, because they really aren't the people in charge of these policies, but I also feel that it is important to bring this to the attention of regular, every-day people. If the employees are following a different system than corporate, well, then the employees should know what they are expected to do.

I was in our local M&S today. I get the impression that the fitting room is now gender neutral - think it used to say Women's and now it doesn't, and I've seen a young bloke in there with his girlfriend. Also, they used to be stricter with monitoring what you took in , and they seem to have stopped bothering. There used to be a row of blokes sitting outside waiting - they weren't there today. Have to say I only saw women, and the transwoman assistant who's worked there for years.

Our M&S now has 3 changing rooms labelled changing Room (in the ladieswear floor), Men's, and Lingerie.

I was in there returning stuff. Now its all gone back on my card, I'm cancelling my account.