M&S Changing rooms incident: "It'll upset the men."

[Desiderata44]

Remember the office of Steve Rowe, CEO of Marks and Spencer, and store managers issued statements recently?

• there is no such thing as men and women's changing rooms in Marks and Spencer any more
• anybody can use any changing room they wish/felt "most comfortable" doing

I went into a large M&S a few days ago with my partner. I ended up joining him in the menswear department to help him with his shop, with a couple of items to try on for myself.

Seeing no signs for a woman's changing room, and with a changing room right in front of me, I remembered what every single M&S statement has told us in the last couple of months and went to the changing room.

I was refused access by three assistants.
"This is the men's changing rooms."
But M&S doesn't have gendered changing rooms any more, that's what they've said.
"We've not heard anything about that."
Really? It's been all over the news.
"No, you have to use the women's."
But you're allowing men into women's changing rooms, so why can't I come here?
"Because it'll upset the men."
What about the upset caused to women by having men come into our changing rooms?
"We don't know anything about that."
So you're refusing me access to this changing room?
"This is the men's changing room."

I walk the length of the store and find the lingerie changing room.
When I left I asked the assistants there about the policy.
They knew nothing about Steve Rowe's new changing room policy.
They said they were horrified to think that men would be allowed to come into the lingerie changing rooms, given they have women and young girls trying on bras.
The manager checked with his superiors. "No store in this whole area would allow men to go into women's changing rooms".
But your Head Office is telling biological men that they can.
The assistant were horrified.
They re-iterated that their changing rooms are NOT genderless, and that they have very clear men and women's changing rooms. One assistant said they had been told in the other women's changing rooms, that if a biological man was dressed as a woman, they'd have to let him in, but most definitely never in the lingerie changing rooms where vulnerable young girls and women would be.

Likewise, every single Marks and Spencer website online chat operator that I have contacted has expressed their horror at the thought of men being allowed into women's changing rooms, no matter what identity they choose to believe they are, and one said, "Absolutely not, it would never be allowed to happen."

So Marks and Spencer refuses me access to a changing room because "it'll upset the men", but its Executive Office and official policy allows men into women's changing rooms with no care at all if it'll upset us. In the middle of this are perfectly decent shop assistants being pulled in all directions by their own consciences and sense of outrage and discomfort, and mixed messages internally.

Who exactly in Marks and Spencer thinks this is ok?

Yet every M&S online helpchat person I asked about this expressed their horror that men would be allowed into women's changing rooms, no matter how "comfortable" they felt about doing so?

Wait what the transwoman who has worked there for years ?

So the person who staffs the women's changing rooms is male and behaves as if he thinks he is female?

I was actively encouraged to use the men’s with my 13 year old just before Christmas. We had collected something for her from the click and collect and it’s in the men’s department and the woman told us that the nearest changing room was just there and that we could use any one now and pointed it out.

Wish I could share my experience, but in my town the M&Ss closed down.
First the menswear shop closed down years ago (they were separate stores), then the womenswear and food closed down this year.
But, to be fair to the staff in the OP, they did say "it'll upset the men", but also did say they wouldn't allow, and seemed horrified about letting men into women's rooms too.

I've had a boycott on them this Christmas because of their official policy

Us too - went and did our 'anything you want for the Christmas week' shop elsewhere - I reckon we saved more than a hundred quid doing it too!

It's absolutely not fair on the employees to put them in this position. Policy should be clear.

I was trying to be fair to the staff in my original post and not make them central to this, they have been put into a difficult situation by Steve Rowe.

But... I have to add, they were not all glowing. I was very saddened that the young assistants, stared at me as if I was crazy as I was speaking to the older assistants, just shrugged their shoulders, and walked off. One older assistants rebuffed me when I asked what about upsetting the women, given the It'll upset the men comment.

I suppose the dominating themes in the men's changing room was:

1. I should not be there. I must be wrong/mistaken in what I'm saying. They are right. Marks and Spencer does not have genderless changing rooms.
2. If there is such a policy, which they don't believe there is, they haven't been told about it and hadn't heard about the scandal.
3. They can't let me in because It'll upset the men.
4. When I asked "Well, what about upsetting women when men come into our changing rooms then?", they said they had not been told what to think about that one.

The dominating theme in the lingerie changing room was:

1. I must be wrong/mistaken in what I'm saying.
2. They haven't been told anything about this and hadn't heard about the scandal.
3. They'd be outraged if men were allowed in their changing room.
4. All the Marks and Spencers in the area don't have genderless changing rooms, they said after checking with management.
5. Their management hadn't even heard about CEO Steve Rowe's new policy.
6. They at least googled what I was saying, and a couple were astonished that it was all over google, "Oooh look, she's right, yeah she's right it's here!"

The Duty Manager said he would take this further and check with higher up about what the policy is.

Another really interesting part of this is why, within the existing rules that these assistants knew about, M&S makes a distinction between allowing a man dressed as a woman to go into the main changing rooms, but would NOT allow him to go into the lingerie department.

Could it be, because you know, they know he's a man and they know this would be endangering women?

My local M&S said they would have to allow a man dressed as a women into the lingerie changing room, but men dressed as men were stopped.

I haven't been back, and stopped all grocery shopping at my local M&S Food too. Saved myself a fortune, and no longer bothered whether they survive or not.

They'll never thrive as a supermarket with clothes either; surely no-one does a full weekly/monthly shop in M&S?

So there was an official tweet on Oct 31 and an official press statement to the Independent on 1 Nov:

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/marks-spencer-changing-rooms-gender-women-men-a9180391.html

This was swiftly followed-up by FPFW on Nov 3 who urged people to write to M&S with their concerns, and a collated series of reports from customers by WPUK on Nov 8.

womansplaceuk.org/2019/11/03/dear-marks-spencer-women-only-changing-rooms/

fairplayforwomen.com/changingroomstories/

So what happened? Were M&S Customer Relations staff all hibernating?

Watch out for that iceberg

So the person who staffs the women's changing rooms is male

Yep, but the person has been there a very long time. When I first met them, probably well over 10 years ago, they were obviously male, but it doesn't strike me as much now. For one thing, they seen to have lost height (I did hear that hormone therapy can damage the spine).

So what happened? Were M&S Customer Relations staff all hibernating?

Everybody in M&S is hibernating except the idiots who are sending out the cut-and-paste responses - which is M&S Public Relations AND the CEO's own office.

It is untenable for a CEO to have done this, and even worse that his own office has so much contempt for women who are their primary market that they don't bother to respond to any question put to them. Just send out the cut-and-paste email. This is the Executive Office, Steve Rowe's office!

Who do we know on twitter to get this It'll upset the men scandal out there?

I too got the copy and paste response from the CEO swiftly forwarded to the PR department and also responded with points I requested they clarified.

No response at all. Did anyone else have any luck even getting another identikit response, or just radio silence like me?

It’s weird that for a company that I think is struggling is turning away the majority of their customers. Good. It will be too late when they realise their mistake after the damage is done.

Complete radio silence after the first word salad email.
No evidence of how they consulted with their women customers, nothing about how we're all gagging to share changing rooms with men, nothing about how their USP (lingerie) experience is enhanced by having men listening to women discussing their mastectomy scars.
It's almost as if they only spoke to those organisations who campaign to remove women's sex based rights but daren't tell us?

surely no-one does a full weekly/monthly shop in M&S?

I did. I was the archetypal Mrs M&S. No longer though.

My relatively new local M&S store is locked into a 15-year lease and it has struggled to establish its customer base since Day 1. Since I joined the boycott, it's lost a four figure sum at the very least because I took my Christmas shopping elsewhere as well as my weekly shop.

I'm not bothered if they survive either.

I didn't do my weekly shop there but I spent £200 or so a month. But no more.

And I used to defend them passionately - I so wanted them to survive and now I really don't care. They have shown utter disdain for their core market and their core market can vote with their feet.

I have told my mum and she had told her friends. They are horrified.

I recommend you also tell older women in your family. Women (who make up the vast majority of their market) need to know how little M&S values their custom

My local M&S and Next have a transwoman (each, not the same person!) staffing the women's changing rooms. (Still marked as women's/men's).

Clymene
Just like you I actively supported them for years - had an M & S account, made a point of shopping there, even buying coffees in their outlets and now I just feel foolish. Who would have thought that a UK legacy brand like this would treat their female customers with such contempt?
But - we didn't miss them at Christmas (not even their yule logs!) and like you I've told many friends (who are equally horrified). No Christmas M & S flowers for distant relatives, no gift cards, a very nice turkey from the local butches and nothing in their sales. December was the big spending time at M & S - and all my ££ went elsewhere.

This thread has reminded me that I emailed M&S HQ and posted a letter addressed to the manager of my local branch, neither was answered.

I have had two M&S marketing emails, in which I am asked to rate products, arrive recently.
In each comment box I have put something like:
'This is pretty. Unlike the M&S policy on changing spaces'
'This dress is ugly. Like your stores' lack of respect for women'

In John Lewis a couple of days ago I was browsing in the lingerie department and saw a very elderly lady going to the changing room.
Her quite frail-looking husband was offered a chair by the assistant and was protesting that he couldn't go in, obviously embarrassed.
I was torn between thinking the assistant was being kind, and wanting to go in and then ask why a man was there....

I understand that NO WOMAN at all has received any proper response from M&S. Not a single one.

I was in Selfridges yesterday. Small set of changing rooms, with curtains. Those curtains that never hang straight and always leave a gap. I was trying on lots of clothes and the assistant had hung the longer items from the curtain rail, thereby leaving a bit of a larger gap too, which I'm usually fine with.

There was a guy waiting for his gf who was trying on clothes in the cubicle next to me. He was back and forth into the corridor, standing outsider her cubicle right next to the big gap. My whole trying on experience was awful as I tried to hold the curtain and put on clothes and move to a corner where if I couldn't see him he couldn't see me etc.

It brought it all truly home to me. The complete loss of privacy, the spoling of my shopping trip, the voyeurism possibility, the thin curtain separating some bloke and me in my state of undress.

Is this our life now when shopping?

I have had two M&S marketing emails, in which I am asked to rate products, arrive recently.
In each comment box I have put something like:
'This is pretty. Unlike the M&S policy on changing spaces'
'This dress is ugly. Like your stores' lack of respect for women'

I did much the same, Jen, when I was sent a similar survey at the beginning of November soon after my boycott began.

Loved using every character space in the free text boxes. Don't think it made the slightest bit of difference though.

I am, however, looking forward to reading about M&S's next AGM. Their shareholders - many of them women - are not known for holding back on their views.

I’ve complained about boyfriends in Women's change rooms before and have walked out refusing to shop when something was done about it. I will continue to do this. If you don’t respect my privacy then you don’t get my money.

If I was you, I’d walk out, complain and then find a shop that respects your privacy and spend your money there.

Also agree M&S is on the way out.

I wondered if it would push more women to shop online OP as they still want the products but M&S haven't really recovered in the fashion sector in my view and they lost their target market some years ago. They still do great underwear but I won't spend my money where I'm not respected, even if I can get it delivered.

I have to admit we recently bought a new duvet from M&S (we needed it urgently) and we do still occasionally buy a few specific items of food there.

However that does give me an opportunity to complain to the staff in the food shop, and to their 'how did we do?' email about the changing rooms thing and say I no longer even consider buying clothes, and that buying any other stuff is done as a last resort or because we can't get it elsewhere.