M&S Changing rooms incident: "It'll upset the men."

[Desiderata44]

Remember the office of Steve Rowe, CEO of Marks and Spencer, and store managers issued statements recently?

• there is no such thing as men and women's changing rooms in Marks and Spencer any more
• anybody can use any changing room they wish/felt "most comfortable" doing

I went into a large M&S a few days ago with my partner. I ended up joining him in the menswear department to help him with his shop, with a couple of items to try on for myself.

Seeing no signs for a woman's changing room, and with a changing room right in front of me, I remembered what every single M&S statement has told us in the last couple of months and went to the changing room.

I was refused access by three assistants.
"This is the men's changing rooms."
But M&S doesn't have gendered changing rooms any more, that's what they've said.
"We've not heard anything about that."
Really? It's been all over the news.
"No, you have to use the women's."
But you're allowing men into women's changing rooms, so why can't I come here?
"Because it'll upset the men."
What about the upset caused to women by having men come into our changing rooms?
"We don't know anything about that."
So you're refusing me access to this changing room?
"This is the men's changing room."

I walk the length of the store and find the lingerie changing room.
When I left I asked the assistants there about the policy.
They knew nothing about Steve Rowe's new changing room policy.
They said they were horrified to think that men would be allowed to come into the lingerie changing rooms, given they have women and young girls trying on bras.
The manager checked with his superiors. "No store in this whole area would allow men to go into women's changing rooms".
But your Head Office is telling biological men that they can.
The assistant were horrified.
They re-iterated that their changing rooms are NOT genderless, and that they have very clear men and women's changing rooms. One assistant said they had been told in the other women's changing rooms, that if a biological man was dressed as a woman, they'd have to let him in, but most definitely never in the lingerie changing rooms where vulnerable young girls and women would be.

Likewise, every single Marks and Spencer website online chat operator that I have contacted has expressed their horror at the thought of men being allowed into women's changing rooms, no matter what identity they choose to believe they are, and one said, "Absolutely not, it would never be allowed to happen."

So Marks and Spencer refuses me access to a changing room because "it'll upset the men", but its Executive Office and official policy allows men into women's changing rooms with no care at all if it'll upset us. In the middle of this are perfectly decent shop assistants being pulled in all directions by their own consciences and sense of outrage and discomfort, and mixed messages internally.

Who exactly in Marks and Spencer thinks this is ok?

Yet every M&S online helpchat person I asked about this expressed their horror that men would be allowed into women's changing rooms, no matter how "comfortable" they felt about doing so?

What is it with 'boyfriends' in the women's changing rooms? I've experienced that too recently and have had no hesitation in complaining. They can't accuse you of being a bigot for that.

It's the thin end of a very unpleasant wedge.

I was in the lingerie changing rooms of a household name department store a couple of years ago. I was standing topless mid-change when a man (*actual man,dressed as man) opened the (not lockable) curtain and stood staring at me.

He did not look in the slightest bit embarrassed and just stood there staring and holding the curtain open. I shouted at him and he left as the assistant arrived to help. Security were called and stopped him in the store.

He claimed he was just looking for somewhere to try something on. Even though this was obviously bullshit as all the other cubicles were empty with the doors open, and the lingerie department is far away from other sections of the store, they accepted this and let him go, telling me it happens from time to time.

What is it with 'boyfriends' in the women's changing rooms?

Maybe some people like their OHs opinions on what they've chosen ? If that is the case, then where else should they be ?

A lot depends on the reasons shops provide changing rooms in the first place, I guess. Are they "merely" to select the right size from a choice of three ? Or are they to allow people to put a selection of clothes on in order to ask other people (friends, partners, countrymen ?) what their opinion is ? The former has no need for anyone to be hanging around. The latter, obviously requires is.

Of course the real reason shops provide changing spaces is to assist in selling clothes and thus make money. And that is where M&S are going to hit the cold air of reality very soon. No matter what their policies on changing/(fitting) rooms might be.

My only observation on all this recent trans nonsense is how quickly it's meant disabled provision has shrunk back to fuck all. It seems a shame the disabled have to suffer because a bunch of able bodied folk started to mess about. After all, it's not as if their lives were peachy to start with.

What is it with 'boyfriends' in the women's changing rooms?

Maybe some people like their OHs opinions on what they've chosen ? If that is the case, then where else should they be ?

Er, waiting at the entrance like they've done for decades? Btw, I feel the same way about wives/girlfriends in the men's changing rooms - they should wait outside too.

Er, waiting at the entrance like they've done for decades?

A lot depends on layout I guess ... I think I was imagining a different setup.

A male partner in the female changing room:

twitter.com/bunifoosh/status/1213807123957714944?s=21

See screenshots for the man's tweets. He does have a trans wife, so it may have been her trying on the dress, although he doesn't mention her. But even so I find the comment about the dress a bit sinister.

"We asked M&S what they would do about a male (who identifies as a "cis" man) boasting about "invading" a female change room and making allusion to what he did in a dress.

This was the reply.

How "inclusive" is it for female customers who feel they are being preyed on?"

twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1213870077889654790?s=19

"Our fitting rooms are made up of individual lockable cubicles to ensure every customer has the privacy they need. They are located within our Womenswear and Menswear departments and therefore are mainly used by customers of that gender. 1/2"

twitter.com/marksandspencer/status/1213840238868664320?s=19

"However, as an inclusive retailer, in line with most other retailers, we allow customers the choice of fitting room in respect of how they identify themselves. 2/2"

twitter.com/marksandspencer/status/1213840304442355718?s=19

I wonder why he's hoping that a "terf" tries on the dress next. What has he done to it?

Oh, I dunno, probably had a wank in it or something.

"probably had a wank in it or something"

So you have seen the photos and videos on Twitter of them demonstrating and then gloating about putting the sticky items back on the rails too, thenightsky?

Seriously, some of these sick bastards are doing this and it is bloody revolting!

I check any clothing very carefully before I put it anywhere near my skin. Not in M&S but a small clothes shop with only two unisex changing cubicles, I was putting one foot in to try on a pair of trousers and nearly threw up when I saw that the crotch area was covered in a deep, crusty, yellowing mass - I feel like throwing up just remembering and writing about this!

There were a couple of customers in, so I took the owner aside discreetly and said (something like), "I think you had better check these out . . . luckily I didn't try them on", showed her the mess and she looked like she was going to throw up too! She rolled them up and put them straight in the bin.

As well as staff training on their stupid "inclusion" policies these big stores need to be thinking about extra staff training on:

• not allowing customers to return items to the rails themselves (it would have to be for everyone, so as not to be "discriminatory")
• inspecting garments for wank-defilement before they go back on the rails (especially lingerie!)
• having a system for disposing of soiled garments hygienically
• providing sick bags and rubber gloves!!

There must always have been men doing this sort of disgusting shit, so shops must know about it. But there is never any acknowledgement that these so-called "inclusive" policies make life horrible for 99% of their customers and for the poor staff having to clean up after the vile wankers.

Its not even about feminism, it is about good management and good retailing.

If women don't have single sex loos, they are likely to be less happy employees. If girls don't have single sex loos, they are less likely to enjoy school. If women don't feel comfortable in changing rooms, they are less likely to buy stuff. A lot of it may be on the margins but there will be an impact on employee retention, school attendance and participation, and on retail turnover.

Post Christmas, DD and I went to the outlet centre in Ashford Kent, me primarily to go to Jaeger. Two cubicles, both with curtains. No assistant. Lots of men milling around outside waiting for a cubicle to come free. (There were large groups of French men taking advantage of the weak £.) The cubicle was curtain only with the first two hooks broken, so the curtain did not close properly. Guess what? I did not buy anything.

Whoever runs Jaeger has not understood the basic tenet of high street retail. Shopping is a leisure pursuit, and the customer needs to feel comfortable/content. I tried on eight items, and was thinking seriously about buying one. I may have had they offered a single sex changing room, but having to make a decision whilst holding a curtain closed proved too much. Despite having made a special trip, I was disinclined to try anything else on in other shops and did not buy anything all day.

Yeugh ! @MoleSmokes

I wrote to M&S about this, and received their standard blah-blah response.
“ As a business, we strive to be inclusive and therefore, we allow customers the choice of which fitting room they feel comfortable to use, in respect of how they identify themselves. This is an approach other retailers and leisure facilities have also adopted. We understand your concerns and I want to make it clear that if any customer was to act inappropriately or cause intentional offence, the necessary action would be taken.“

I replied pointing out that i did not feel comfortable with men in a women’s changing room, especially if children or teenage girls were also there.

No reply from M&S. This thread reminds me to chase them again.

Disgusting that men are allowed near women’s changing rooms. The curtains never fully cover the doors and even if they have doors, it should be a space where women can get UNDRESSED with the FEMALE family members in peace.

As a lot of changing rooms aren’t maned, what if a pervert male goes into them. You feel safe?

How you feel about single parent males who want their females daughters to be measured for bras in a safe space?

Can’t wait until men are using women’s toilets and flashing their private parts. Biological men will be competing in female sports, hurting women and stopping them from qualifying.

Why can’t we help protect females from situations?

Just wondering if there might just have been another reason for M&S's lower than expected sales.

From the article:

However, sales in the clothing and home division fell 2.7 per cent to £1.1 billion in the third quarter.

Online clothes sales were lower than expected, with revenue in the UK edging up by 1.5 per cent.

“The food business continued to outperform the market, and clothing and home had a strong start to the quarter, albeit this was followed by a challenging trading environment in the lead-up to Christmas,” M&S chief executive Steve Rowe said.

www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2020/01/ms-suffers-disappointing-christmas-period/

Funny thing happened at the toilets today I was waiting at the ladies single use so one loo right next to a mans single use loo a man queues up behind me waiting for the ladies....he then tells me there is another toilet next to me and pointed to the mens (they are clearly labelled girl in dress boy in shorts) I looked at him and said umm it's ok you go ahead he huffed at me and used the mens

Am I fucking mad or is the world crazy