Do you think disabled toilets will be reassigned to accommodate transgender people?

[yellowallpaper]

Councils won't be building toilets just for transgender people and women will object (rightly) to gendered men using their loos, so it seems likely disabled toilets might end up reassigned to accommodate the differently gendered community.

I have a disabled child and finding a suitable loo which isn't being used by someone not wishing to queue, is difficult enough as it is.

Do you think this is a possibility?

Where I am disabled toilets tend to be slightly more broad already - they are used by anyone who needs more room or a single bathroom. I used them a lot wen my kids were small for example and I couldn't fit them in a typical stall.

I don't really have an issue with this. If toilets are constantly hard to find for any group it's a problem of not having enough of them. If there are a very few trans people that need a separate loo it makes sense to accommodate them with those types of set-ups and that should be reflected in how many are assigned.

I don't think it will appeal much to people who want to probe thet TWAW though.

@Goosefoot:

Of course you don't have an issue with it; you're happy to redesignate disabled toilets as for "anyone who needs more room". They aren't - they are for people with disabilities. They're broader to allow wheelchair access, not so you can fit all your kids in at once.

Of course you don't have an issue with it; you're happy to redesignate disabled toilets as for "anyone who needs more room". They aren't - they are for people with disabilities. They're broader to allow wheelchair access, not so you can fit all your kids in at once.

I think that's a very narrow POV. There are a number of people who cannot easily use a typical toilet stall in sex segregated facilities. Some are disabled, some have small kids who can't be left alone outside the stall, sometimes people need a mixed toilet if they have to help someone of the opposite sex, some people are elderly. And while generally I think people should use the sexed bathroom appropriate I think there are a few cases when that could cause significant discomfort to others and that might be another reason. Some people also can't wait very long though that can be across a broad spectrum and they don't always need differently designed facilities.

The important thing is that all of these people can access appropriate toilet facilities in a timely manner. The sign that happens to be on the door is not the most important element of that, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a large single stall designated for disabled persons, one designated for families, one designated for those helping someone....

Turn it around, would it make sense to have a stall designated for parents with small kids sit empty while a disabled person who also just needed a larger stall sat waiting for the stall that had the disabled symbol on it to be free? If there is adequate provision of toilets them no one should have to wait very long for the type of facility they need to be available.

My workplace designated all the disabled toilets as gender neutral. They have of course always been used by both men and women so the resigning was interpreted as meaning able bodied gender neutral as well as disabled.

They have now had to introduce keys for 50% of the disabled toilets- so that they can be used by those that need them

Thats disgraceful. Its disgusting that your employer is willing to force disabled people to have to be the ones to object.

They are desperate to be seen to be doing the right thing, but have absolutely no idea what to do.

I don’t think they are alone

@Goosefoot

Except the sign on the door of the large single cubicle does say that it's designated for disabled people. If you want one designated for families with children, I suggest you campaign for it. Yes, there is a current trend for redesignating disabled toilets as gender neutral, but it is relatively recent and won't last (given that it is unlawful). I'm not going to keep banging on about why it is important that the able-bodied leave disabled toilets for disabled people, since you clearly can't think beyond how nice and big the cubicles are. I suggest you read the entire thread. You never know, you might come across a post that makes you stop and reflect that everyone else should not have to move over to ensure that your needs are met.

Yes, I have read the thread. I also pointed out that where I live toilets for the disables are already multi-use, so your idea that somehow I am doing something against the rules is simply incorrect.

I am slightly flabbergasted that you are content for mums with small kids to be told to stay home until they can get campaigns for separate toilets to come through.

But you've missed my point utterly, which is that as long as the populations needing toilets are considered in a sensible way, and there are enough of each kind, the labels used or combining groups is not something that has only one correct solution. It wouldn't matter if no toilets were called "disabled" so long as there were disabled toilets when people need them.

I've found in modern buildings in my part of the world this is usually the case, the regulations require a fairly generous number of toilets of different types. It's unusual for anyone to wait long.

How many small children did you have Goosefoot? I had no problem with having two small children in a standard cubicle with me and would have managed another one too.

Many public toiletsareinaccessible for a lone woman with a baby in a buggy

Well this is where parents need to try and help themselves a bit. Take account of your local town and places you are likely to go to often enough for it to be an issue and buy your baby transport accordingly. Buy a buggy you would be able to half pull in or wedge the wheels under the door a bit .

Use one of the.many zip pockets in your change bag to carry a bit of loose change so worse case scenario you can go buy a hot chocolate at the cafe you know has large single occupancy toilets .

Make sure you look at the facilities/services available in the area you are in..you are going to need to do that anyway when it's time.to potty train. Being a parent means you basically know the location of every toilet in a 10 mile radius you just have to learn earlier than you think

@Goosefoot

It is the designating of disabled toilets as multi-use that is the problem. It means that a lot of disabled people are put off going out. I'm also not convinced that these public buildings are meeting their responsibilities under the Equality Act.

I absolutely agree with you that there should be more/better facilities for parents with children, but providing these should not mean that provision for disabled people (which is woeful already) is taken away. That said, before I was diagnosed with MS, I regularly managed to get into a cubicle with three under-fives.

In the scenario where men's loos be redesigned to cater for consenting women too...

I think all women's loos should be single sex. Let men budge up for their TW brethren and their allies.

So, you're arguing the importance of sex segregated toilets for yourself but simultaneously trying to take them away from another group?

You mention the 'consenting women' using the men's toilets. What about the men's consent?

My partner was stalked by his ex-girlfriend for ages. She used to wait outside his house and follow him around on nights out. He would often use the men's toilets as a hiding place or to call a taxi/plan his escape route.

On our second date he was suddenly and roughly pulled off his bar stool and dragged outside by the bouncers, with the police arriving minutes later. She had accused him of punching her and had a bloody lip (presumably self inflicted) to 'prove it'. He was barred from said pub but it went no further as he'd not been alone with her at any point in the night and had alibis.

But imagine if she could've followed him into the men's toilets...

@MissMaleficent:

What do you think the odds are, of a man being a victim of violence perpetrated by a woman, compared to those of a woman being a victim of violence perpetrated by a man?

Are you suggesting that the needs of one group should cancel out the needs of another?

What do you think the odds of a White English/American women being assaulted are compared to that of a WOC living in Somalia?

I agree that toilets for people with disabilities should be exclusively for those that need them.
A family member is a contractor for public building services. He was asked to install gender neutral toilets in a university. What he actually did was to install 3 groups of toilets, male, female and gn in the space available. The accessible toilets were installed in a separate location nearby.
I think that accessible toilets could be better designed too and there should be a variety of provision and more of them. I often find that I need to use the accessible toilet when all I actually need is a grab rail, not the extra space etc. I had grab rails installed in my home and they are not that expensive. I think there is really not much thought or effort going into design.

Nobody is saying that mums (or dads) with small children should stay at home. However just as when you travel with small children you need to ensure you plan by taking nappies etc you also need to plan around the availability of facilities accordingly. This is something disabled people have to do all the time and many times the facilities will be in use, dirty or unsuitable. Before I had my disabled child I managed to get around with his 2 older siblings fine. Many department stores had facilities that were ok, I took someone with me for trips I had to make or just managed. Trips took much more planning but I certainly wasn’t stuck at home as a result of my circumstances. Believe me it was so much easier to get out and about then even with a double buggy than it is with my disabled child now. There will always be times when planning isn’t possible, for example having to rush to a hospital appointment or something like that, but where it’s possible to plan accordingly, parents with small children should. If parents are serious about wanting proper facilities, why on Earth are they visiting places and handing over their money to them when their needs are not considered there? metro.co.uk/2019/04/30/by-using-the-disabled-toilet-youre-putting-me-at-risk-9327740/

@MissMaleficent:

Are you suggesting that the needs of one group should cancel out the needs of another?

No, I am exposing your whataboutery. Thanks for assisting me by answering my question with a question.

Lots of normal cubicles will fit a pushchair, and if they don't, this is something we should be campaigning for.

However, a proper accessible toilet will have additional facilities like grab bars and a lower sink.

The need for a cubicle that can contain a pushchair and the need for a toilet that will enable transfer from a wheelchair really aren't the same.

Thanks for assisting me by answering my question with a question.

Yes, my apologies.

Bit rude of me after you answered my original question with....a question. 🤣

'Whataboutery' is a good attempt to silence an opinion you don't agree with.

I wonder what you'd say if a TRA accused you of 'whataboutery' when you mentioned women's rights in the context of trans rights.

As I said, it shouldn't be about removing existing rights from another group. Both sexes need privacy.

I've already seen 'gender neutral' signs being added to the doors of disabled loos in venues I visit regularly

This has happened already in my local leisure centre - disabled toilet is now gender neutral toilet or something similar

Our local department store has adjustment for dealing with buggies in the women’s loos (no idea if same in men’s); standard line of cubicles (6 or so) with sinks opposite but there is a additional barrier and sliding door that can be locked across to separate off the end two cubicles and sinks from the rest. So plenty of space for a buggy and you can leave the cubicle door open. Seems a simple, cheap, neat solution to the buggy problem.

A few months ago their was a massive thread about mums using accessible loos. On the back of it I did ask MNHQ to look at some sort of campaign for better provisions for parents. They never got back to me.

But on the whole I agree public loos providers will take the easy option, re-label the existing accessible loos for both parents and for transgender.

When designing new ones they are more likely to go down the route of disabled / parents / nappy changing and unisex for the rest.