Sharp rise in child cases at gender clinic (Times Scotland)

[Igneococcus]

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sharp-rise-in-child-cases-at-gender-clinic-lvlqnzk5q?shareToken=b80cde10c1057f1e6055eb560c8c370b

"One referral falls outsides the age categories"

So under 4?!

Fucking hell.

I'm some ways I'm not surprised with the amount of media coverage over the last few years. As it's undoubtedly the parents who are confused and taking children to the Gp and pushing for referrals.

I'm so glad they include the vice of a detransitioner. I feel so bad for her. And I'm so cross with the left for peddling this crap.

“I am a woman, who has issues with being a woman, but I am still a woman.”

Yes, I agree. It's good to hear a first hand account.

I find this very hard to believe:

"The NHSGGC board also told forwomen.scot that the number of patients registered male at birth or female at birth was not logged."

Why wouldn't they?

Unbelievable- you don't do it if you have no interest or intention of conducting research into causes.

This is referrals - I hope that clinicians are the clinics are skilled enough to explain and counsel parents and yp through the range of difficulties they could be dealing with as well as explain the homophobia and sexism of our society.

I'm so furious about the T Lobby. JKR may have done far more than she thought but coming out with that tweet; getting people talking. I have a mind to post a load of those TT children's books to the clinic.

Its still seen as trendy. Neighbours daughter became a son a few years back. Very nice, creative, fun young person, but only a few friends. Now he's transitioned, he's surrounded by girls all day long, like we have a celebrity in the street. Watching them fawn over him (still homely and ordinary looking, still very sweet natured and adorable) is very uncomfortable as an onlooker. It just rings false to me. Where were these girls five years ago? Bullying the original incarnation, that's where.

Thank you for the share token Igneo
How on Earth can this clinic not be recording all this basic information? I’m confused. Or
are they recording it but ‘not centrally’ so it therefore doesn’t fall under FOI duty? I don’t understand what’s happening here.

I really felt for the detransitioned woman quoted (she is aged 28) after having had permanent surgery. “I am a woman, who has issues with being a woman, but I am still a woman.”

The NHSGGC board also told forwomen.scot that the number of patients registered male at birth or female at birth was not logged.

So their patients are girls who want to be boys and boys who want to be girls, yet they have no record of the actual sex of these children? Is it normal for a health service not to log the sex of its patients? Especially when the reason for a clinic's existence is that the patients are unhappy with their sex.

Hope this shines more light on this growing child abuse scandal.

I will never understand how any adult can do this to so many children - they have blood on their hands and these kids have lost their childhood because of this trend.

To read the transitioners account - the removal of body parts - is haunting. And that's a grown woman. How can anybody amputate children's body parts along with all the other monstrous aspects to this?

I also feel for the detransitioner. It's deeply worrying that nobody explored her psychological issues.

Thanks to her for speaking out, and to those women in Scotland who've pushed to gain exposure for this butchery and grooming.

I'm some ways I'm not surprised with the amount of media coverage over the last few years. As it's undoubtedly the parents who are confused and taking children to the Gp and pushing for referrals.

Neuro Not having a go at you here, honestly. (and I’m sure quite a lot of parents do push for referrals) but as the mother of a 14 year old daughter who announced she was a boy in October, even as a parent who doesn’t want to affirm/have her go down a medical route, it is so difficult to avoid it. I took our daughter to her GP hoping for a referral for an autism diagnosis. I was completely ignored while the GP asked her a series of leading questions and at the end (took maybe five minutes), said she was referring her to Sandyford, above my protests.

It’s utterly insane. I am very pleased to see that the waiting list is now two years (we were told 12-18 months). We’re using it to buy time and will absolutely not be taking her to any appointment that may eventually come through.

Parents are bombarded with crap from Mermaids, LGBT Youth Scotland etc. Our daughter’s year head told us we had no choice but to let the school positively affirm her as a boy (overturned when we complained to the Head). When you Google, all the initial results are positive affirmation ones- it’s very difficult to find groups of parents taking the watchful waiting aapproach (Bayswater Support and Our Duty Group are excellent).

I’m just hoping all of this passes by the time DD is 18.

Rant over.

Sorry Rodgmum, my comment was very flippant and insensitive. I'm probably referring to the very young children who are mostly confused by sexist stereotypes, and various news items where there's clearly been a sexist affirmative stance by the parents, especially in the us.

Thank you for highlighting that gps are also culpable. As well as schools and I expect CAHMS. I can't imagine how hard this must have been for you. I know that from detransitioner's stories the fierceness of desire to trans and be seen by a Gp and medically treated is enormous. Plus the narrative is woven into films and tv shows. Hard to escape it all.

Ultimately the TRA Lobby has captured everyone who might influence yp at all levels.

Also thanking you for the article, Igneococcus.

From another thread, "If you can't see sex, you can't see sexism." The whole point of collecting any sort of demographic data is to check whether both privilege and pain are in proportion to the population. I remember reading about the contrast in monitoring between the UK and France, and though I can't now find that article, I did find this:

academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/georegions/Europe/France01.htm

Oh, look! France's Constitution and Penal Code prohibit the collection of data that distinguishes origin, race or religion. Although the motivation behind the prohibition is laudable it is questionable whether the effect of the prohibition advances or retards efforts to combat racial discrimination. It is seen as inhibiting the tracking of racism and anti-Semitism and also makes monitoring the progress of anti-discrimination programs, legislation and initiatives difficult. The Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has expressed concern that France's penal legislation may not adequately address 'actions which are discriminatory in effect" and recommended that France take steps to ensure that these types of actions are prohibited.

Racial discrimination in France is unacceptably linked to a governmental denial of the existence of certain racial categories altogether. Article 2 of the French Constitution eliminates even the idea of particular minorities. France's state party report to the Human Rights Committee, states that Article 27 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is not applicable to France since it is a country in which there are no ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities. The Committee however disagrees. The mere fact that equal rights are granted to all individuals and that all individuals are equal before the law does not preclude the existence of minorities in a country, and their entitlement to the enjoyment of their culture, the practice of their religion or the use of their language in community with other members of their group.

There's also this: The State Party report submitted to the CERD in 1998 shows a steep decline in the rate of racist and anti-Semitic violence in the 1990s. Contrary to these official statistics provided by the government, in 1996, the Special Rapporteur explained that his specific country mission to France "was prompted by the multiplication, since 1990, of racist and xenophobic incidents targeting immigrants and of anti-Semitic acts, which the French National Consultative Commission on Human Rights had noted in its reports for 1991, 1992, 1993 and 1994." Since then, the National Advisory Commission on Human Rights reported an increase in acts of racist and anti-Semitic violence between 1998 and 1999. The Campaign Against Racism and Fascism (CARF), a British anti- discrimination magazine, reported 4 deaths in 1998 alone, all linked to racism.

The Census people are proposing to not-imagine what would happen www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/27/scottish-census-body-backs-self-id-guidance-for-sex-question, but many of us can... www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Oh Neuro your comment was fine! Lots of parents do push- I have friends who have a daughter of the same age who are full on pushing her down this route. I haven’t even spoken to them since all this started for both of our daughters- I just can’t.

Another problem is that parents assume that by being referred to the clinic, they think their children will be fully assessed. It’s not made clear that it is a single track to medicalisation.

I really wasn’t having a go, just using you as a platform to vent. The more people horrified, the better for parents like me and all of these children because it will be highlighted.

To be honest I'm worried that a lot of these girls are being sexually abused and are trying to 'identify' out of it. I wish the clinicians felt able to explore this angle without being perceived as trans phobic

Our Gender Identity Service is modelled and informed by World Professional Association for Transgender Health guidelines and is shaped by existing evidence available.

These people are going to have to stop trotting out this shit. WPATH is a an activist group and the existing "evidence" doesn't support extreme interventions.

It's good it's out there.

Still, I'm getting sick or reading about all the stuff you lot have been saying for years, been banned, deleted, gained a strike or two, and been "told off" for, when you have desperately tried to raise these points. Then some.paper/jorno comes along gets all the credit for their discovery and everyones reading it for the first time.

And yes I think its very obvious that between the porn trend and increasing sexual harassment and girls as young as 6 being assaulted in schools its obvious why someone would try and identify out of it.

Where are all the middle aged trans men ?

Rodgmum, absolutely vent away! If anyone has that right it's you and those parents with children who are going through this nightmare. And the trans widows and children of transitioners aswell. It all needs sunlight.

It’s not made clear that it is a single track to medicalisation. is this the case? Is it at that clinic only or everywhere? Or do you mean the teens or others now push for that result? I thought there was proper assessment done? That is affirmative care; I thought GIDS didn't actually follow that model whereas the US does? If so this is more of a safeguarding scandal than I thought.

Certainly the child I taught who was referred around 10 years ago was actually supported to clarify and untangle it all and as no actual dysphoria with his body was found, he wasn't treated. Recieved an asd diagnosis not long after, but was already in an sen school.

Oh Neuro your comment was fine! Lots of parents do push- I have friends who have a daughter of the same age who are full on pushing her down this route

Interesting! Could you tell us a little bit more about this, please? In what way do they push? How does this manifest? Do you have any insights into why they may be pursuing this path?

There was a story in my local newspaper last week about a young boy ( 14) who was now identifying as a girl - with the full support of father. Boy was the son of a very macho, working class, bodybuilder - who goes to the gym every day; bought boxing gloves for son etc. The son is clearly gay - but now identifies as trans. Both son and father clearly see no other possibility than having been born in the wrong body. Rejection of overtly masculine roles has not been considered.

There’s no proper assessment. Teens can find out the types of questions they will be asked online from others who have been through it and suggested “correct” responses. The assessments focus on the teens feelings and where they see themselves in the future. We were told 3-6 sessions, approx one month apart for diagnosis and it only focuses on gender identity.

If we were going down the NHS route with our daughter, I would have wanted an autism assessment run in parallel. I would also want a full exploration as to why she feels she wants to be a boy- e.g. she says she doesn’t feel like a boy, she just wants to be viewed as one. She has a long long history of obsessive fantasies and acting out characters which take over her whole life when “in character”. This just feels like a socially acceptable version of that and I would want it explored. The clinic doesn’t do any of that.

I would want medicalisation to be an absolute last option for these children, but any sort of talking therapy is viewed as conversion therapy. I’d argue that literally trying to physically convert to the opposite sex is the conversion therapy.

Just the parents I know truly believe the notion that you can be born in the wrong body. Their child has also been suicidal over not being a boy so I can understand where they are coming from. Even if your child isn’t suicidal, all the guidance from LGBT Youth Scotland etc pushes frightening (and questionable) suicide statistics. The parents are in full support of their child getting testosterone at 16 and are unhappy at the long waiting lists for medical treatment (too long for the child to have gone on puberty blockers first, they will probably go straight to T).

I wouldn’t personally argue with parents (of teens!) who are going down this route even though I vehemently disagree with them. It will be incredibly difficult for any parents, no matter their views and I suspect there will be a tiny minority where transitioning will be the right long term solution. I just want there to be options, full assessments and alternative paths.

Just the parents I know truly believe the notion that you can be born in the wrong body

Thanks! That's the thing, though, isn't it....? If you believe that one can actually' be born in the wrong body' than you have to accept the whole shebang...all of it.

I'm not convinced, myself, at all...that transition can ever be the 'best' solution in the long run. It may modify or mollify short term suffering - but in the long run body/mind integration always has to be the best way. the fact that no other possibility for suffering is even permitted or explored is outrageous.

the recent event in Manchester which involved six young female de-transitioners was profoundly moving.... and scary. Several of these young women had gone from suffering anorexia to 'being trans' - without question from any professional involved in the process. And it was reported ( by the girls) that the feelings around body dysmorphia were exactly the same in both instances. All of these girls turned out to be gay. But now having undergone radical hysterectomies, mastectomies and years of testosterone treatment.

She has a long long history of obsessive fantasies and acting out characters which take over her whole life when “in character”. This just feels like a socially acceptable version of that and I would want it explored.

Some people have been talking about the concept of paracosm with regard to trans identities in youngsters elsewhere recently. Does it make sense to you, rodgmum?

A paracosm is a detailed imaginary world. Paracosms are thought generally to originate in childhood and to have one or numerous creators. The creator of a paracosm has a complex and deeply felt relationship with this subjective universe, which may incorporate real-world or imaginary characters and conventions. Commonly having its own geography, history, and language, it is an experience that is often developed during childhood and continues over a long period of time, months or even years, as a sophisticated reality that can last into adulthood

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracosm

Justthe parents I know truly believe the notion that you can be born in the wrong body

How were they when the mum.was pregnant? You see threads about "gender disappointment " fairly often. There are lots of peope who go for a third/fourth child I the hope for a girl. In fact I'm sure they was even a documentary at some point where they showed several families, one whi had 8 or so boys and was having baby after baby trying to have a girl. Another who had been researching on the internet how to swing the likelihood of having A girl. All came down to temperatures and changing the acidity etc. I think one were also thinking of selective reimplantatation. The need to have a boy or girl seems to run so deep that parents will do anything. All they want to do is buy piles of pink sparkly shit for their unborn baby girl. I guess it stands to reason in a house full of boys that the girl is unlikely to be the princessey type. Which probably adds to the disappoint and maybe that's a trigger as to why they must be a boy after all? And the dads seen.obsessed with having a football team and arent interested in playing tea parties etc as if that's all girls do.

Sorry that was all a bit long winded, I'm just wondering if theres a link between the preferences the parents showed before the baby was born factor in how the child is then treated and whether that leads to issues.

Particularly with baby girls. Everyones obsessed with knitting out baby girls with as much pink.as possible. Even at pre school the dresses and skirts are important. The idea of sending them with jogging bottoms and a hoody are alien concepts...