Sharp rise in child cases at gender clinic (Times Scotland)

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sharp-rise-in-child-cases-at-gender-clinic-lvlqnzk5q?shareToken=b80cde10c1057f1e6055eb560c8c370b

she says she doesn’t feel like a boy, she just wants to be viewed as one.

This keeps coming up. How transitioning is nothing to do with how you feel or see yourself, but how other people see you.

I asked on another thread why 'misgendering' is so important to trans people. But if transitioning is all about how other people react to you and talk to you, then misgendering and deadnaming is enormously important.

These children are transitioning for other people's approval, not for themselves, because they want other people to think they are something they are not. Why is the health service encouraging this? You don't solve problems which exist in your own mind by changing how other people see you.

I think a lot of parents still don’t realise just how utterly batshit things like tumblr are. It’s full of teenagers asserting trans doctrine as incontrovertible fact at each other under the guise of being kind & inclusive. By the time their 13/14 year old is insisting they are a boy not a girl, they will have had several months if not years of discussing this over and over and over with ppl who have only reinforced their feelings. It’s utterly tragic :(

I had what I would say was gender dysphoria from early childhood right through to about age 16. Spoke recently with a counsellor about it (who I was seeing to discuss the sexual abuse I'd been through in childhood) and we both agreed that it was more a desire to have a body that could not have that abuse done to it - a male body instead of female. I never told a soul how I felt back then (about 30 years ago) and I am glad I didn't. To have transitioned at a young age would have become the biggest regret of my life and may even have driven me to suicide. I count myself VERY lucky that none of this stuff was in the public eye as it is now.

I know all cases are different and not all kids are feeling how they do because of abuse.. but I still do not understand why this has become such a big popular thing nowadays. Compare it to kids in the 50s and 60s - how many of those, truly, would have wanted to transition?

Regarding the question about not exploring different options fully, perhaps this article (and similar ones) sheds a bit of light?

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/23/child-transgender-service-governor-quits-chaos

to all parents going through this minefield and trying to do their best for their children.

'The mastectomy followed in 2017. “I was initially very pleased because the biggest part of my dysphoria came from my chest — the mastectomy was the thing I wanted.”'

'Now she feels that experiences with men in her teenage years are at the root of her discomfort with her female body. This is something she feels the Sandyford could have explored.'

Women KNOW. so many girls hate their developing bodies, due to the sudden change from person to sex object, the way men look at you, the assumptions and expectations around who you are, what you like, what you should be.

Girls have tried to disguise their breasts, the most obvious marker of impending sexual maturity, for ages. Certainly when I was at school.

The new answer is not to address the gross view of teen girls in society, but to have them surgically removed.

It's really distressing.

Society is fucked up about women's breasts full stop is it any wonder we react.

I think a lot of parents still don’t realise just how utterly batshit things like tumblr are. It’s full of teenagers asserting trans doctrine as incontrovertible fact at each other under the guise of being kind & inclusive

Family friends who are experiencing this mention how invaluable social media is for creating a community for their child. I know I'd lose the mother as a friend if I tried to discuss this with her (the father is opposed to the degree of affirmation that is happening and it's causing rifts).

Under four?

My DD is 3. She mixes her pronouns all the time. Because she’s three. How could anyone do that to their child?

I know all cases are different and not all kids are feeling how they do because of abuse.. but I still do not understand why this has become such a big popular thing nowadays. Compare it to kids in the 50s and 60s - how many of those, truly, would have wanted to transition

Queer Theory happened in the late 80's/90's....& .'Gender Studies' & Ideology has supplanted 'Women's Studies' on university campuses. Also technologies/surgeries and big pharma have developed to cater to a new 'market'. That is not to say there were never people with severe gender/body dysphoria.....I'm sure there always have been.

Many people who 'turned out' to be gay reported similar feelings on growing up.....and a few transitioned - back in the days of the 'Transexual'. And even many who are heterosexual have struggled with identity in a world of rigid gender stereotyping and expectation. This is nothing new.

Also what's new is social media and on-line communities who coalesce around certain issues. The world has become factionalised, tribalistic and cultish.

Family friends who are experiencing this mention how invaluable social media is for creating a community for their child

The tragic irony of that.......young people are being swept up into a cult; manipulated by adults with agendas; and a cult in which there is a good possibility that they they will come out of the other side having been subject to physical mutilations and medicalisation with long lasting consequences.

My DD is 3. She mixes her pronouns all the time. Because she’s three. How could anyone do that to their child

Such young children are highly susceptible to imagery and presentations around them. If one or other parent has issues around gender roles or expectations of girls and boys.....and if children are exposed to a diet of rigid gender stereotyping and expectation.......forcefully manipulated by unwitting adults into strict gender roles........

I've lost count of the number of months old baby girls, for example, with hardly any hair......that have what hair there is tied up into outlandish ponytails etc....and dressed all in pink. Disney also has a lot to answer for.

I wonder @ArranUpsideDown if they’ve spent any time looking at the social media ‘community’ their child is part of? I get why it’s hard to raise it I really do.

if they’ve spent any time looking at the social media ‘community’ their child is part of?

I suspect some time but not much and I'm not sure how much they'd be able to engage in ?? conversation about it as it would be interpreted as failure to affirm. (The mother is my friend, it's the father who is not affirming. Overwhelmingly, the friendship circle supports the mother - I support her in general but not for this, IYSWIM. I dread being asked a direct question.)

Sarah I don’t know. They also have a younger son so don’t know if gender preference would have played a role? I do know that the daughter was horrendously bullied at high school when she started there and her parents eventually moved her to a different school- then all this came out. I haven’t talked to the mum in ages although we were good friends for about four years. They are all prolific on social media and I’m watching it there. They won’t know about my daughter as I don’t discuss her on Facebook or on my non-anonymous twitter account (I use an anonymous twitter account for it).

Im in a group chat with several ppl who are lovely but completely TWAW and who were really upset by JK Rowlings tweet. I dread them asking me directly what I think @ArranUpsideDown so I get you
I feel cowardly but they’ve been completely tumblrised about this. They’re generally sensible young women so I’m hoping time & daylight will help

Family friends who are experiencing this mention how invaluable social media is for creating a community for their child

Let's not forget that Mermaids have their own secret forums for children and teens and also for parents, to access you need to show your passport and other information.

Mermaids state that they support affirmative care.

Mermaids also have secret weekend retreats where young teens can attend on their own (I believe, last reading of the website) and guest speakers include people who have transitioned and various clinicians too.

How the fuck this is not all being picked up on by safeguarding authorities I do not know.

How the fuck the national lottery think it's appropriate to give them funding I do not know.

I hate the tories but the fact they're in does at the very least mean there may be a chance to continue to challenge this shit and expose the harm. It will be via the detransitioners and it will be sadly too late for many.

In their own words:

www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/tavistock-complaints-process.html

Thanks @Justhadathought it's interesting. What even is gender studies though? All I've seen online is people faffing about making clay vulvas to hang everywhere and anywhere?

'Now she feels that experiences with men in her teenage years are at the root of her discomfort with her female body. This is something she feels the Sandyford could have explored.'

People seem to transition because of the way they are treated by others, or because of things they have experienced which they believe is connected with their sex and the way people of that sex are treated.

The problems caused by society treating women and men differently is being 'fixed' by people altering their bodies to resemble that of the opposite sex. Why is there such a reluctance to try to fix society instead?

I had what I would say was gender dysphoria from early childhood right through to about age 16. Spoke recently with a counsellor about it (who I was seeing to discuss the sexual abuse I'd been through in childhood) and we both agreed that it was more a desire to have a body that could not have that abuse done to it - a male body instead of female.

Same for me. Even to the point of dreaming that I would wake up with a male body, I’d wish on stars at one point. I’m glad I wasn’t a kid now as I would have been transitioned and I’m fine with being a female, it’s the abuse towards my female body that I hated.

@Aaarrgghhh sorry you went through this too. Yes, I'd wish to wake up male - this wishing began aged 7 - when the abuse was at its' worst.

This is why it's hugely important that young people are given talking therapy - lots of it - proper therapy - to figure out exactly why they think they want to transition. I tend to think the problem is not often the body at all, but the mind. It sounds like the people in gender clinics are not really helping young people in the right way - at all.

I can't stress enough how awful I would feel to have gone through full surgery and taking Testosterone the rest of my life. I would feel utterly betrayed and devastated. When my abuser was finally out of my life, this coping skill/method of gender dysphoria began to break down. I'm really glad to be female.

I'm so sorry to read what you went through Jodie and Arrrgghh. it makes sense, and seems to be another awful common theme in the narrative that no one is publicly talking about.

I'm going through the thread in more detail as I was unable to give it its due attention yesterday.

Thank you for your explanation of the assessment ROGDmum.

That sounds very dangerously narrow and I agree that what you describe in terms of how she explores fantasy worlds could be elements of autism. I certainly see a lot of that in many of the children I teach.

I hadn't heard about Paracosm and it's certainly an interesting one.

ROGDmum Have the fantasy characters been her own imagination and invention or have they been copied from tv, books or animals?

options, full assessments and alternative paths. this is woefully missing from not only the diagnosis routes but also the general trans lobby narrative. There is far far too much projecting and pigeon holing.

Sarah gender disappointment has been mentioned before as a factor. I think there must be so many different factors. Certainly I feel one issue generally is the force of gender stereotypes and especially the pinkification of everything for girls. I also got royally pissed off with buying boys clothes when my son was around 1-2, all blue and brown, trucks and cars. Took a while for me to find places with brighter fun clothes.

Talking to colleagues once, there's a genuine belief in some families that girls really do innately like pink and stereotyped activities, nothing to do with crappy science. I was taken aback at how much they believed this.

Great post fraggling. And yy to batshit tumblr. Thomasin describes hours and hours of tumblr and YouTube. And this obsession with identity and which box you fit into. Identity seems to be really distressing for so many young people these days. How they look, where they fit.

https://www.ihmistenkirjo.net/blog/thomasin

Neuro Always TV characters up until now, and from a very young age. We didn’t think much of it when she was little, but as she grew older, they started to take over more and more of her life. Some were quite benign- e.g. when she was Phoebe from Friends, all long hair and flowing skirts plus she taught herself guitar- then as she got to puberty, they were darker, picking misfits from TV shows.

Up until now, she could only cope with one friend at a time and what would happen was that she would talk incessantly about whatever TV show she was obsessed with and be in character.Eventually, the friend at the time would get fed up and tell her to stop so she would move on. Right now, she is a boy and for the first time is in a group of friends with three other older girls. They all accept her as a boy and I think that being seen as a boy is really just a socially acceptable version of becoming a TV character.

neuro

I have 2 girls. the amount of pink crap you get inundated with is ridiculous. I mean who thinks a multiple layered puffy dress is even remotely practical for a baby I dont know. There were many "take a pic for grandma and get this crap off " moments.

I'm often confused by the anger expressed on MN too should some old lady say hello and "isnt he lovely " . I mean seriously babies look like frogs when they are tiny..no ones trying to upset you by "getting it wrong" they just like to see a new baby occasionally. Get on with your day for heavens sake

Thank you @NeurotrashWarrior. Yes, we're not allowed to talk about the possibility that at least some children are experiencing gender dysphoria because of abuse, particularly sexual abuse. It is definitely one possible reason though. I imagine even for some girls nowadays, simply the fear alone of being sexually abused or assaulted would be enough to make them want to transition.