12 year old to start puberty blockers

[PreseaCombatir]

This child thinks they’ll be able to have a womb transplant to have a baby when they get older. It seems so cruel to lie to a child like this. link here

"THE MUM of a transgender boy has revealed that the youngster, now 11, asked her when would he "get the right privates?" when he was just two years of age."

That's an extraordinarily complicated sentence for a child of two to construct. It's almost as if it's complete bullshit.

I don't think my children aid any attention to their genitals when they were that young. They certainly didn't really clock that boys and girls had different ones

This degree of distress about an anorexic's body would trigger urgent intervention. Chopping the winky off? Implanting a foreign organ (a uterus)? This is absolutely horrible.

The head teacher of the secondary school said the child had 'complex issues ' at her school and the primary. It sounds like there's more going on than meets the eye.

Is there a Father in this family? 7 kids by how many men? The Times running it today.

It sounds like there's more going on than meets the eye
I feel like with things like this, there always is

Turning childish ideas into a medical condition that needs attention, affirmation and medication is just abuse. Never mind the physical implications of unnecessary medical treatment, centring a child's half-formed whims and laying so much attention on them is, in itself, really damaging. Does nobody in these situations understand boundaries? Do they ever say no to their children?

As far as I can see, the argument is that if the child’s beliefs aren’t affirmed, the child will be upset.

So the issue is that the child needs to be helped with their emotional responses – they need to come to terms with reality. And probably some investigation of why they are so upset.

I think this is at least partly a form of permissive parenting - a belief that a child is born knowing more than the adults around them.

Will Malone on Twitter is a great source of scientific papers on the effects of puberty blockers. For example here is a study of an 11yo on PB whose IQ dropped 11% after 17 months on the drugs.

twitter.com/will_malone/status/1151614450803212288

And here’s the Michael Biggs report from July this year: users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf

Puberty blockers carry risk of bone crumbling and serious chronic pain. I live with chronic pain through disability and no parent should choose to risk this for their child.

Even ‘if’ a womb transplant and pregnancy was in theory possible and organ anti rejection drugs come with risks. While some of these drugs may not carry too high a risk plenty do, risk of miscarriage among many others. Now if a transplanted womb in a male body ‘miscarries’ what happens to the person themselves as neo vaginas being linked to a transplanted organ is even less likely than a womb transplant itself.

And the mothers point about birthday invites - if she has 7 children isn’t she aware that party invites tend to drop off after a certain point? It’s whole class invites for a couple of yrs then down to smaller groups then just a best friend or two taken out for the day. That’s normal. Maybe your kid being made to think the whole world should fall at his feet means he hasn’t got a best friend to invite now he’s 12.

A womb transplant is what killed Lilli Elbe (of The Danish Girl). I once got called bigotted for suggesting that Elbe's doctors should have been prosecuted for manslaughter.

Even today, a womb transplant into a female body is very risky and into a male body impossible.

That report linked by Will Malone is interesting. I think what it shows isn't reduction of intellectual ability but failure to increase it as expected in line with age (if a child's IQ is derived by dividing intellectual age by chronological age).

The child was 12 at the start and 14 at the end of the report: 80 x 12/14 is pretty much 70. I think it shows stalled development.

Wonder if the intellect then catches up on stopping the medication, or on taking opposite-sex hormones to induce artificial cross-sex puberty?

Sorry yes Dodo you are right, it is not that the IQ dropped, more that it didn’t increase at the same rate as is usual. I think similar findings were made with regards to bone density.

You have to wonder what the hell the artificial halting of puberty does to the brain. We know that the teenage years (aka puberty) are a time of intensive rewiring in the brain (hence the mood swings and associations of risky behaviour) so it stands to reason that if you prevent a body/brain from going through its natural puberty you must be doing damage on some level. Sadly it will probably be years before the effects are known and how many people’s lives will have been ruined in that time?

"Like any little girl, Ashley loved wearing princess dresses". Aaghhhhhhhh

If they take puberty blockers does it mean they never go through puberty at all? Even if they go on to take cross sex hormones?
I read about what happened with poor Jazz, left with pre-pubescent genitals and no sexual function which is the price they pay for apparently looking less Male.

I’ve only looked briefly at Jazz but she’s a cautionary tale.

A lady I met when my children were babies had 8 children and then went on to have another two. I think she liked the attention it brought with it. I wonder if some parents feel it makes them and their children special when really it feels incredibly dangerous.

Jazz is another whose parents claim he said he felt he should have a vagina age two. He probably learned his mum had a vagina and was to young to grasp the difference yet, same as my girls told me their little boy friend had a funny gyna age 4. That jazzes parents turned that into a media career based off of jazz being trans is sick and abusive. And corrupt of any tv company and the viewers (adult) validating this nonsense. Jazz has had zero chance to develop any kind of identity or personality outside of this, he will never have any chance of a fulfilling sexual relationship, and for what? He looks fairly masculine as it is, so if the parents left well enough alone, let Jazz dress and play exactly as he wanted and develop as a person then even if he transitioned as an adult he would have looked basically the same from the outside. From what I’ve read he won’t even have developed enough genitals for a neo vagina construction, at least if he was a normally developed adult he would have that option if he was 100% sure.

There are many concerning things here but I Will pick up on just one.

Ash wants a womb transplant when she is older as if there are no ethical considerations at all about harvesting uteri from women (I think I have that plural correct). Never mind it is currently medically impossible, someone should ask that child just where they think the womb is going to come from and why they think they are entitled to have it.

The comment upthread about harvesting the wombs of transgender men so that transgender women can have them is both chilling and plausible; however, I would like to hear someone who says they want a womb transplant explain just exactly where this womb is going to come from. So utterly dehumanising of the woman who will be donating this womb (is she thought of as alive or dead? Is the womb a product of gender realignment surgery or hysterectomy? Where exactly is this womb for a womb transplant going to come from?).

Ash may be a child but I would be telling my child that no, that womb belongs to someone else, they cannot just assume at some point they will be able to take it; it is not theirs to take, even if it were medically possible.

I’m guessing that puberty blockers and male hormones have a significant effect on whether a womb has the possibility of being fertile (can a womb be fertile?? Can’t think of the correct term) even if there’s an off chance that a transman is trotting off down the local hospital to donate their womb on the same day a transwoman would like one implanted. Plus if a transman’s vagina is a male vagina then doesn’t that make her womb a male womb? Maybe once the womb is comfortably snug in a trans woman’s body it will identify as a female womb and do the job of a female womb. Once a female who identifies as a woman has gone along and got a tone of female hormone shots and invasive procedures to donate her eggs of course.

Those of us wanting to get rid of our wombs for medical reasons will likely have ones that wouldn’t be successful in a transplant (in the far off land where womb transplants and rainbows exist). Although I’d be very willing to let them have mine, I’d be glad to be done with severe hemorages requiring intravenous iron and the occasional blood transfusion. Not sure what would happen to all those hemorages inside a transwomen though, especially one whose had hormones from young ages so had so little undeveloped genital tissue there was no way to make a neo vagina. I’m imagining the scene from willy wonka where violent gets bigger and rounded until she nearly burst, but red. Let’s hope there’s oopma loomps in the far off land of womb transplants.

To be real, wombs would come from poor women with no other choice but to sell their body parts, more likely woc from other countries who have no other way to feed themselves or their families.

I think I read something about taking testosterone can cause the womb to atrophy in transmen so I’m guessing that they might not be viable once T has been started.

One thing that stands out in all the discussion is that all the mention is simply of the womb as if it is merely an incubator. In none of the talk about womb transplants for trans women (yes I know it’s all hypothetical and quite frankly fantasy) do they mention the relationship between the mother and foetus via the endocrine system and the subtle interactions of the hormones of both parties. There’s still so much we don’t understand about pregnancy and birth and it’s not just as ”simple” as sticking a womb in any old body and hooking it up to the blood supply.

In the Kent online Facebook post the mum thinks the hormones just delay rather than prevent male puberty. She is totally wrong. Her child will never be an adult in their mind, having taken these hormones. Who has lied to her? And why?

Those of us wanting to get rid of our wombs for medical reasons will likely have ones that wouldn’t be successful in a transplant (in the far off land where womb transplants and rainbows exist). Although I’d be very willing to let them have mine

The proposed procedure would be really invasive as detailed on this thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

“"By the age of five, she was asking 'when is someone going to chop my winky off?' and questioning why she had it at all."

Never happened

I think this is at least partly a form of permissive parenting - a belief that a child is born knowing more than the adults around them.

You know, I think this might be true. It's a sort of romanticism, this idea that if you just respond to their cues all will be well. Which makes some sense with infants but not so much past that stage, I don't see how people with any substantial experience of children can believe that.

However just today my woke friend on FB was arguing over a post she up up about accepting kids self-declaration. The fellow she was talking o was pretty mild, only really saying that it's important to look into the reasons and think through what is going on, rather than just always accept that a child knows what is best. She and her compatriots couldn't seem to get past "I will always err on the side of supporting my kid." Which I don't imagine is true even on the face of it, you only have to think about it for 30 seconds and any parent could imagine 10 scenarios where that was a bad idea. The lack of self-awareness is pretty staggering.

@MrsJamin - I googled 'pausing puberty' and these were the first results which weren't about pausing precocious puberty:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00027mp radio 4 from February 2019

www.livescience.com/50755-transgender-kids-hormone-blocker-puberty.html

(The second article is sub-titled 'why puberty blockers may help')

As to why this such a pervasive narrative, I have a couple of theories, none of which are about it being in the best interest of the child as this 3rd article makes clear

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

I guess Ash's mum hasn't read that one