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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is it like in India for women?

89 replies

MIdgebabe · 07/12/2019 09:01

So we have a defendant woman burned to death on the way to a trial

Shooing of defendants by police celebrated

Accusations of false rape apparently being very widespread ( this may relate to sex being classed as rape if marriage was promised and not delivered.)

It feels like a disgust of sex , policing of them peoples lives, with blame often put at the woman's feet but wondered if anyone had insights

OP posts:
Queenoftheashes · 07/12/2019 09:57

I’m glad someone has started a thread on this. Apparently a woman is raped in India every 20 minutes. I also read about some guy tweeting that rape is no big deal but murder is so rape should be legalised and women should comply to avoid being murdered over it. This attitude seems to be horribly prevalent if you look into statements men have made (lawyers for defendants in rape cases etc).
I believe i also read that it’s the most dangerous place to be a woman.

Queenoftheashes · 07/12/2019 09:57

I’m fucking disgusted basically !

TinselAngel · 07/12/2019 10:02

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/apr/01/outsourcing-pregnancy-india-surrogacy-clinics-julie-bindel

The situation with women and surrogacy in India is horrific.

Uncompromisingwoman · 07/12/2019 10:04

Has violence against women and girls has always been this bad in India? I know that women have been actively protesting for many years but is it suddenly getting worse or is it just that it's more publicised? An Indian film maker even suggested that rape without violence could be legalised :

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7756857/Indian-film-maker-sparks-fury-suggestion-rape-without-violence-legalised.html

GCAcademic · 07/12/2019 10:12

Has violence against women and girls has always been this bad in India? I know that women have been actively protesting for many years but is it suddenly getting worse or is it just that it's more publicised?

I’ve read that it’s got a lot worse since internet porn became readily available.

I can’t quite get my head around it. On the one hand this is a country which has the highest percentage of female pilots in the world, and has had a prime minister (albeit nepotism) well before many Western countries did. And yet the violence towards women is off the scale, and often involves unimaginable depravity.

Hoppinggreen · 07/12/2019 10:18

DH used to spend a lot if time in India for work and still has a lot of friends there.
From what they say the situation is bad for women, it’s not generally safe to walk around on your own even during the day. Life is a bit easier for women of higher castes but even they have to live life within certain boundaries if they wish to be safe.
Women are seen as general lay quite worthless part from as a commodity to earn money or tie 2 families together for financial/influence reasons.
One person explained it to me that if you have a daughter you invest time and money in her and then she will marry and become an asset to another family so you get no return on your investment. A boy will marry and bring a wife into the family so you will gain an extra asset with no investment. This person didn’t agree with that view but he said a lot if people did.

Fandoozle1 · 07/12/2019 10:24

In India violence against women is very common. My mother in law grew up there and she still says it’s not a safe place for girls and women.
Police are very corrupt as well, you could be raped and go to report it and the same thing could happen to you in there by those who are supposed to help you.
A rise in viewing porn has also fuelled sexual violence in India.
The dowry for marriage is still a huge problem. MILS family still partake in that if someone is getting married, a girl that married into their family was treated awfully because she didn’t give “enough” of a dowry. MIL thankfully is more enlightened than them.

MockersFactCheckMN · 07/12/2019 10:28

India is a big place.

It is entirely likely that the shot suspects were innocent and the police were paid off by associates of the real offenders. Wild support for this shows the populist road Modhi is taking to join Duterte.

Another big thing in 21st century India is sex selection abortion. Totally illegal, but not that that stops anything in India. Already signs of a bride shortage and a trade in Nepali imports.

SimonJT · 07/12/2019 10:28

@Uncompromisingwoman It depends entirely on the state, it also depends on the caste of the woman. Sadly people from lower castes are barely seen as human by some people from high castes.

It’s a bit like the prince andrew effect, just as he can do as he pleased as he’s wealthy and of high social standing, it’s the same for higher castes. And just like prince andrew, official bodies, police etc will allow higher castes to do as they please.

I’m from the Chuhra caste (in pakistan and india) we’re so low simply touching us would render a higher person dirty. Our caste isn’t even allowed in holy buildings, we’re not even clean enough to be slaves for the wealthy. Chura is a fairly common indian/pakistani insult. It’s akin to some Brits calling certain people chavs etc.

Until money and family power isn’t what makes a person important those who are vulnerable will never be protected.

Uncompromisingwoman · 07/12/2019 10:42

Thank you SimonJT I was aware of the caste system but I suppose had assumed that this had dies out somewhat in recent years?

Depressingly I saw that this rape victim has died:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7766389/Indian-woman-alleged-gang-rape-dies-burn-attack.html

IdblowJonSnow · 07/12/2019 10:49

I visited India about 12 years ago with my now husband. I didn't know about the massive rape/violence issues at the time, well not the scale of it, or I wouldn't have gone.
I've never been hassled so much in my life. I wore long loose clothing and many layers and still was followed around, had men taking photos of my chest area. We were in the south and travelled to five different regions, it was such an odd experience. When I wasnt hassled, males would talk to my husband and not me and ask him questions about me. It is so so different culturally but that's no excuse for the out of hand cruelty and violence.
In my opinion this can only be resolved through education and will take decades to truly filter through.
The more modern thinking younger generation are starting to live differently with women having more freedom but the majority don't understand this.
From my experience it was a very scary place and if my daughters ever wanted to go I'd be terrified- as things stand.
I was pretty keen to leave by the end of our month there and I feel so sorry for many of the women and children born there as for most of them there is little opportunity for freedom/education/basic rights and safety.
From another point of view it's such a shame it's dangerous because India is fascinating in its cultural diversity, history and scenery. The food was amazing, the best I have ever tasted.

museumum · 07/12/2019 10:59

I had reason once to visit a major city and hang out with pretty well off young professionals. We went out to dinner and the cinema and even night clubs like here but the young women would normally call for their parents driver to get them home, some drove themselves but only to big hotels with valet parking and normally in mixed sex groups not alone. There was no question at all that any of them would walk anywhere after dark (even to a parked car) or catch a bus. No chance at all.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/12/2019 11:22

And of course many women in India don't make it far past birth....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-50668883

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/12/2019 11:22

That should have said females not women...^

Fraggling · 07/12/2019 11:45

India is massive and diverse.

Situation in rural areas different to eg cities.

There's a billion people so stats like rape every 20 mins don't mean much. Needs to be per capita.
I wonder what the number per mins is here as well.

Yes they have huge problems around this and not to turn away from that, but just wanted to point the above out.

ChattyLion · 07/12/2019 11:47

Impact of prenatal technologies on the sex ratio in India: an overview

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4052431/

This very important (and deeply shocking) journal article - shows the lethal consequences of patriarchy for women- it links anti-female sex selection and infanticide, VAWG and a rise in attacks and rapes on women as well as all sorts of other abuses. Laws are already in place against many of these.

MangoesAreMyFavourite · 07/12/2019 12:25

Violence seems to be off the charts now but growing up there, it seemed pretty violent too even though I never saw anything first hand.

During my teens, the papers always had at least a couple of stories of brides being murdered dying in a kerosene stove blast while cooking. Since then the law has changed and if anything happens to the bride, the groom and his parents get 7 years non bailable jail terms automatically while the trial goes on. Suddenly stoves became so safe overnight but there's a bunch of people in jail saying "she's lying".

Nowadays people who have daughters (at least in cities, urban middle classes) seem to want them and educate them and give them freedom. But others don't have daughter's (abort the baby girls) and consider women as an underclass. It's the contrast between both sides of society that also causes the tension. My niece is a single child, well educated, working in Mumbai but surrounded by men who don't value women - so is extremely careful where she goes, with whom etc. And that's in Mumbai , supposedly one of the safest cities in India for women.

MIdgebabe · 07/12/2019 12:28

From the Internet, India is low in the tables of rapes per 100,000 , say 1/10 rate of most of Europe

Which doesn't seem to fit the narrative/vibe ...guessing it reflects low reporting rates?

OP posts:
MangoesAreMyFavourite · 07/12/2019 12:32

Twenty-one dowry deaths are reported across the country every day. The conviction rate, however, is less than 35 per cent.

Dowry deaths still an issue despite the non bailable offence.... Data from 2015.

Fraggling · 07/12/2019 12:38

Impossible to say.

Reporting rates low across the board.

Yes India has massive problems I just wanted to flag that stuff before we all say how awful it is over there, it ain't exactly great anywhere.

Hefzi · 07/12/2019 12:41

Femicide has been the rage for a while - new technologies just make it easier. There is an imbalance between the sexes, in terms of numbers of men vs numbers of women, and combining this with regressive practices around dowries, restriction on marriage pool for religious reasons and other cultural practices means that there's a disproportionately large pool of unmarried men who, with the rise of smartphones and porn, have been egged on into seeing a woman as an entitlement. Not that we don't have that attitude in the UK, but if you are brought up in a culture where women have no value, and the other factors of culture and religion exacerbate the situation, it's hardly surprising that attitudes are more entrenched to the extent that "Eve - teasing" is barely considered an issue, and that rape is almost endemic in some localities.

ginghamstarfish · 07/12/2019 12:43

For the reasons given above, probably a majority of rape victims do not report it ... so imagine what the real statistics must be.

SomeVelvetMorning · 07/12/2019 12:54

Thank youSimonJTI was aware of the caste system but I suppose had assumed that this had dies out somewhat in recent years?

Yes, that was very interesting SimonJT. I'm assuming you no longer live in India?

Lamahaha · 07/12/2019 13:04

I can’t quite get my head around it. On the one hand this is a country which has the highest percentage of female pilots in the world, and has had a prime minister (albeit nepotism) well before many Western countries did. And yet the violence towards women is off the scale, and often involves unimaginable depravity.

It's very hard to make any statement about India, for which the exact opposite is also true.
The attacks on women are horrific, the disregard for lower caste women is disgust me. But my own experience, as a woman, who loves India above all othe countries, is the reverse.
I first went to India in 1973, as a mixed race hippie, on the overland trail so, I was poor and had a dishevelled look about me. I went with a man but we parted company in South India and I went my own way. I lived in and near an Ashram. Mostly, I rented a small cottage without any amenities so, no running water, toilet, or electrcity. In the hot season, I often slept outside the front door, on a man, easily seen over the fence and easilily accessible. I suspect that back then it was different; I would not encourage any young woman to do this today, especially not a foreigner. I should add that though I have brown skin, my hair is slightly frizzy as my ethnicity is mixed race/Caribbean. Yet many Indians assume I'm Indian.
Anyway. I was on my own for 18 months, I used to wonder around the place, at night, sometimes on very lonely roads, returning in the wee hours (this was part of a spiritual ritual I used to practice).
As I didn't have a toilet for many months, I used to go out in a field and did a whole. Many Indian (men) did the same. I just chose a time when I'd be alone, yet still in full view.
I've been going almost every year since then. I've never once been addressed impolitely, much less attacked or rudely propositioned -- not once. I last went last year for three months, (I always go to the same place) and now that I'm an older women, I meet with almost reverence from men. I'm always addressed as Madam or Mataji or Mother or Amma. A friend of my son's, in his 40's, told me he ddn;t like to call my by my first name as it was disrespectful, and so he chose to address me as Mataji, which means Respected Mother (-ji is a suffix of respect).
I suppose it makes a difference that the place I go to is a traditional and ancient place of pilgrimage, where the original values of Hinduism tend to be observed, and that makes a difference.
When I first came to India as a young woman of 23, it was a revelation NOT to be seen, for the first time in my life, as a sexual object and not to have to see myself as such. In fact, it was in India that I finally found my bearings as a woman who was not beholden to men in any way, who no longer had to please men. I've only gone from strength to strength since then, and India is the place where I recharge my batteries. I'm going again in January, with my daughter and small granddaughter. My daughter has been going with me since she was a child and loves it as much as I do. As do many, many women I know.
There have indeed been some attacks on women, foreigners especially, in the last ten years or so. Society tends to go downhill rather than up as far as sexual mores are concerned.
But where India is concerned, the culture of deep respect for women IS there, even if buried, as can be found in the older texts and scriptures. Sexual continence traditionally is supposed to be upheld by young men. There is the tradition that a boy is taught to see every woman as his mother or sister except his wife. He is supposed to revere "shakti", and seek it in himself, and strive for humility rather than dominance. All of this I've seen lived out by many Indian men, and this would be the culture of the golden age Indians believe in. Traditionally, men are encouraged to choose celibacy after they've lived the householder's life and raised children. You will still find that a man is celebrated more for his ability not to need sex, than for his sexual conquests. At least in certain circles. Sexual overindulgence is seen as a weakness, not a strength that's one of the tenets of Yoga.

It's really hard to put into a few words a lifetime of experience, and there's a lot more I could say. I've travelled a lot in India and I've seen the best of that country as well as the worst I've even been into Indian brothels in Kamathipura, Mumbai's red light district, and been confronted with the devastating situation of child prostitution so I'm not coming to this with a blue-eyed vision.

Anyway, I could go on for pages but I won't, not only that I doubt it would change anyone's mind, but my daughter has just come to visit! Just bear in mind that India is an extremely complex culture, with multiple facets, and impossible to tie down.

SimonJT · 07/12/2019 13:23

@SomeVelvetMorning I grew up in Pakistan, but our family were punjabi so we had family in India due to partition. Different country, exactly the same problems. There isn’t enough money in the world to pay me to go back to Pakistan or India!

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