What is it like in India for women?

[MIdgebabe]

So we have a defendant woman burned to death on the way to a trial

Shooing of defendants by police celebrated

Accusations of false rape apparently being very widespread ( this may relate to sex being classed as rape if marriage was promised and not delivered.)

It feels like a disgust of sex , policing of them peoples lives, with blame often put at the woman's feet but wondered if anyone had insights

I've only been to India on an organised tour. I chose that because so many of the women I known who've been to India (and not just India but Malaysia, Indonesia and north Africa) have come back saying 'amazing, wonderful, awe-inspiring' etc. Then they begin to let slip stories about being pestered everywhere they went, rape attempts and lucky escapes. One of my friends was drugged after being lured into a shop. She has no idea what happened to her and tries not to think about it because it would be too devastating. I wish women were a lot more honest about their experiences. It's almost as if they feel it's some kind of failure to admit that many places are frightening and dangerous for a woman.

I struggle when holidaying anywhere it's clear people are really poor and suffering. I was in South America a couple of years ago and in some ways the poverty was just as shocking as India. I traveled with friends who seem blind to it. It's a bit like feminism: you either 'see' it or you manage to ignore it. Once you've seen it it's impossible to go back to being blind.

We are, despite everything, very lucky to be here in western Europe.

India has a lot of people (1 billion plus). How many transwomen are in India and how many women are forced to share toilets and female private changing-areas with them? Is there any data on this?

I had an experience in India where I narrowly avoided gang rape. My friend and I were staying in an apartment on the first floor part of a hotel in goa but deserted. On our last night she met a guy I was in the apartment alone packing for our night flight. Must have left the curtains open so I was seen by a large group of Indian men. They all silently tripped up the stairs to our apartment and banged on the door. I turned the lights off and sat in silence only a thin cheap door between me and gang rape while they banged on the door and shouted. I sat there until they left and my friend returned. I was literally gibbering with fear. I loved India but this underside is so frightening we couldn’t take our young daughters there.

India has a lot of people (1 billion plus). How many transwomen are in India and how many women are forced to share toilets and female private changing-areas with them? Is there any data on this?

Indian law recognises transgender people as belonging to a third sex, neither male nor female. They are called hijras and have their own distinct communities.

Each Indian state would have its own laws and regulations as well as culture regulating the treatment of transgender people. Below is a wikipedia link to just one state in South India, Tamil Nadu, which has an estimated 16000+ LGBT people; I don't know how that breaks up into gay and transgender. That's a tiny minority and I many if not most of them would not be "out" due to social stigma.
Knowing the utter chaos that dominates Indian public life, I doubt there are many stats available. However, according to this article TN is among the most progressive Indian states in LGBT rights.

As for sharing facilities: I don't know, but men and women are fastidiously segregated all over India in public places and it's hard to imagine an obvious man barging his way into a female area; when in groups, Indian women are known to get very aggressive, beating up men who transgress.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tamil_Nadu

@Lamahaha you confused me greatly between mat and man until I saw your amendment :)

I thought it was an Indian practice I hadn't heard of.

I had a look in feminism as I couldn't find anything else on MN about the poor burned woman. She was so strong making a statement to police from her hospital bed in agony before she died.

I don't know if things have genuinely gotten worse in India or if it's better reported now via social media and there's a growing number of younger women in urban areas who see feminist movements elsewhere and feel inspired to speak out as well.

I'd imagine the proliferation of porn via the internet in a very sexually repressed and prudish society that looks down upon women in general definitely contributes to the crisis.

There's an undercurrent of lawlessness and corruption of authorities in many areas. If you are raped, it can be risky going to the police for help because you might be raped again by them (since you're defiled now what's a few more men raping you).

If you come from a wealthy and high caste family, you might manage to avoid the horrible stuff as long as you stick to your bubble. Wealthy socialites and celebrities lead very sexually liberal lives that are a million miles away from, for example, a young woman in a remote village.
The disparity between rich and poor can be very wide.

For some reason the spiel of 'India has a rich tradition of deep respect for women' always gets my hackles up. I, and most of the Indian women I know, have never really felt respected, safe nor viewed as fully human by our fathers, brothers and husbands or men in general.

A lot of sexist attitudes and ideas are baked into various religious and cultural frameworks all over India, trickled down over millennia from works like the The Laws of Manu.

I'm really glad that I was lucky to be able to make the UK my permanent home. For all its faults, I'll still take living here and dating British men over life in India any day.

It's a beautiful country that I'd love to visit but I won't because of the horrific attitude and acceptability of violence against women and girls.

Hi, I am Indian. As someone above said you can’t make any generalisations about India. I grew up and lived in a very big Indian city. I was always ‘careful’ but I used public transport to go to school from the age of 12, I had boyfriends, I dressed in Western clothes. But my parents are University professors, they are relatively wealthy and we were surrounded by ‘people like us.’ Some cities in India are also more unsafe than others of course. I don’t know how to describe it- yes India is unsafe but when I am in India I go into ‘India mode’- dress differently, walk differently, follow safety rules so I am always conscious of safety. India is deeply deeply misogynistic, casteist, communal and social divisions run deep. Most of my family (not my parents) do not remotely share any of my political views on any thing.

For some reason the spiel of 'India has a rich tradition of deep respect for women' always gets my hackles up. I, and most of the Indian women I know, have never really felt respected, safe nor viewed as fully human by our fathers, brothers and husbands or men in general.

But it's true, even if deeply obscured and buried under a mountain of misogynistic crap, so as to be practically invisible on a day to day basis. I know, because I've experienced, it but I think the average Indian woman won't ever, unfortunately.

I don't know about the Laws of Manu, but Vedic tradition teaches that there is absolutely no difference, on the consciousness level and in value, between man and woman. None whatsoever: we have the same consciousness and all apparent differences are merely a collection of man-made "attributes", ie mental stereotypes of false identity and roles, which we cling to, thinking they are "me".

Unlike Christian creationist mythology, that sees Eve as being made from a rib of Adam, Hindu mythology says that God, or original spirit, split into two, resulting in duality and life on earth; but that that original, non-dual spirit is still alive in all of us, the source of all happiness, strength and love; and it's that we seek to return to. (in a very simplistic nutshell!)

A lot of the problems that result in trans-identity could be better resolved through an understanding of Vedic philosophy/psychology, which seeks to answer the basic question of Who am I? What do I really seek?-- which is at the core of the confusion.

Children, and adults, who are taught to meditate ie turn within to find quietude and strength develop an inner stability which would help them/us safely navigate the turbulent and dangerous waters of modern society . This according to research at top universities, including Harvard.

@Lamahaha, I do get what you are saying about India being an extremely complex country, and obviously you have spent a lot of time there and done a lot of religious study, but I don't really know what meaning "a rich tradition of deep respect for women" can have if, as you say "the average Indian woman won't ever experience it". It does seem bit dismissive of the experience of women who are actually raised in and live in India permanently, most of whom don't have the time or money to spend years studying religion.

Interesting about the trans stuff. It's issues like this (rape and violence against women in India) that make me "wtf" when some people talk about trans issues being the biggest threat to women's rights worldwide.

Cat, I'm as horrified as any of us here about the status of women in India and their abuse, rape etc. As I mentioned earlier, I once did a project that involved research in one one of Mumbai's (it was then Bombay's) worst red-light district and I got to see first hand the abominable brothels filthy, rat-and-lice-infested in which they most of them live (literally, in cages!) and I met some of the youngest children growing up in these circumstances and forced into the trade. At the time I was working with a Mumbai doctor who was helping and rescuing women, and I was hoping to raise funds for a home in the country for them; the land had been provided. Sadly, it never materialised. But at the time, I was involved, heart body and soul.

After a while though, the sheer magnitude of the task is so overwhelming that one (I, me) backs away. Just spending one day in an overcrowded, noisy Indian city is mind-numbing, soul-draining.

I suppose it's a problem that Indians themselves will have to solve. I read last night a Guardian article that said that Indian women have reached the end of their tether on this and there is a huge amount of anger. I think THAT is what is needed. The rage of Indian women. Trust me, they are not doormats and once mobilised I think they could bring about change.

Of course, India's very rich spiritual tradition is of no help whatsoever for these women, and I never meant to imply that it was! It's a problem that needs urgent attention. As the Mumbai doctor told me back then, the police and judges are all complicit. Bribery is a huge thing and the people behind it have loads of money. It's all so damn corrupt.

I really feel so helpless at the devastating plight of these women and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that "all they have to do is meditate". That's not what I meant at all!

I guess all I wanted to do was throw some light on the complexity of Indian society, show that there IS another side; which could be of help in the transgender fiasco the West is facing.

when I am in India I go into ‘India mode’- dress differently, walk differently, follow safety rules so I am always conscious of safety.

Yes, it's amazing how much of your behaviour as an Indian woman instantly and unconsciously alters the moment you are in India. Always vigilant and hyper aware of everything and everyone around you. Conscious of the time ... Can't stay out too late. Making sure you're in a group. Making sure your clothing covers your body properly. Even in relatively liberal and metropolitan areas you still have to have your wits about you.

India has a lot of people (1 billion plus). How many transwomen are in India and how many women are forced to share toilets and female private changing-areas with them? Is there any data on this?

Goodness yes, all these reports of gang rapes, intimidation and murder of complainants, female infanticide and selective abortion just pale into insignificance compared to the vital question of how many trans women are there in India.

Should there be any doubt I'm being sarcastic.

I found the film lion, set in India, based on a true story about lost/street children fascinating. It really makes you appreciate how big it is, how different it is and the poverty and it’s just heartbreaking.

Also padman about a man who found a way to make sanitary towels more cheaply to help village women who had to use rags and sleep outside when on their periods. This is in contrast to an educated rich young woman who helps him to promote them after his village are horrified by what he’s doing.

It’s a big country, and that means that the laws and enforcement which apply in the big cities can be missing in the rural north. The village councils have done some shocking things.
www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/an-indian-teenager-was-raped-by-her-father-village-elders-had-her-whipped/2016/05/09/f6d6c840-c531-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html

@somevelvetmorning

I KNOW RIGHT?!?!!

so as to be practically invisible on a day to day basis. I know, because I've experienced, it but I think the average Indian woman won't ever, unfortunately.

In which case, it's of no use to Indian women then, right? It's reality and practicality that matters to women on a daily basis, in India as well as around the world, not religious theory.

Indian women are patronised enough by their men - politicians, religious leaders and in general. It's usually the men who extoll how great Indian culture is and how there's lots of respect shown in the Hindu scriptures towards women. Even if it were true - and followers of every patriarchal religion will gush about how noble it is if you look deeply enough into obscure texts - it matters not one iota in terms of the daily struggles of a woman's life.

What Indian women need is not more religious interpretation, but secularism and a change in deep seated mindsets.

Yes, there's a lot of variation between regions and communities. Yes, there's lots of amazing culture and history and art (and food - oh my god, the food!). Yes, there are lots of good Indian men who are deeply concerned about the safety of women. However, there are so many other aspects that women are subjected to from cradle to grave. It's not even about sexual violence.

I lived in a girls hostel for my undergraduate degree and we were studying for our finals. There was this bubbly, lively girl who was very chatty and didn't seem that keen on getting the best academic scores. She always came across to me as carefree and a bit dim, while the rest of us studied hard and stressed out about our grades.
She burst into our room one evening singing some film tune and dancing. We laughed and someone jokingly shouted at her to get back to studying for the finals. Didn't she care about her results?
Her light-hearted response was so profound that it will be forever etched in my memory.

"What's the point in getting first class? We will all be married off after our graduation anyway."

Everyone laughed except me. It was meant to be funny but it made me so profoundly sad and angry because it encapsulated the reality for many Indian women. No matter what your educational and professional achievements, at the end of the day, your only worth in society is being married off and giving birth to children.
She was smarter than the rest of us because she understood the patriarchal rigged game.

The vast majority of Indian women don't have passports to a better or different life. Visitors always have the option to go back to the comforts and freedoms of their home country.
I'm glad you've had wonderful experiences in India. It's not all doom and gloom for sure, but being born and raised in Indian culture is a very different experience. The weight of societal expectations is a very heavy burden to bear, and the fact that so many women manage to do so and still have a smile on their face is something that has always impressed me.
I don't have that kind of resilience so I tried to find a way to leave it all behind.

Great post. Very much agree about the religious stuff.
All religions are ‘based’ on good elements but are played out and twisted beyond all recognition by patriarchy and the need for power. Actions speak louder than words and the words are irrelevant if the actions do the opposite.
Yet people still cling to the words and thus continue to allow the actions.

In which case, it's of no use to Indian women then, right? It's reality and practicality that matters to women on a daily basis, in India as well as around the world, not religious theory.

Actually, it CAN be of use. Not religious theory, but a firm and resolute practice. It can help with the burdens of daily life. I know, because I've known such women. You ask where they find that resilience - maybe from within themselves?

But I don't want to come across as glibly dismissing the problems. I am aware, more than perhaps is coming through my posts. And I see that I'm already in danger of being grossly misunderstood!

But where India is concerned, the culture of deep respect for women IS there, even if buried, as can be found in the older texts and scriptures. Sexual continence traditionally is supposed to be upheld by young men

I'm afraid this caused serious eye- rolling for me.

I'm afraid this caused serious eye- rolling for me.

Yes, it's an unusual perspective, especially for Westerners, which doesn't make it any less true. I know/have known such men.

Did you know that one of the goals of Yoga, so popular in the West, is to learn how to contain sexual energy? An aspect that is routinely down-played by woke young practitioners, who prefer to go in the opposite direction!

Lamahaha I don't deny that if everyone practised their religious faith and spiritual beliefs well, then a lot of societal problems would resolve themselves.

I am a very logical person so I struggle to understand how people use spirituality to improve themselves, but clearly it does help many people around the world find acceptance and resilience and a way to deal with complex and conflicting emotions and personal issues.

Maybe it's because I have little to no religious leanings that I find it very hard to relate to such approaches.
If the practice of such beliefs was such a powerful and transformative force for good, human society would be very different by now.

I didn't know that. I'm not interested in yoga. Entry level woo really.

Even if it were true - and followers of every patriarchal religion will gush about how noble it isif you look deeply enough into obscure texts- it matters not one iota in terms of the daily struggles of a woman's life

This seems spot on. Maybe the women who were raped, burned, murdered, forced into prostitution weren't just as spiritually enlightened as you.

I have travelled all over India as an older women...and usually pretty invisible . I go because there is a sense of optimism from people that makes no sense but is inspiring. Have met with fantastic strong feminist women running NGOs and organisations in red light areas, and in rural villages which are educating, supporting and setting women up in small businesses and even traditionally male employments. They face considerable personal danger to do so. The caste system is strong and the dowry system still exists even in more educated states such as kErala. But over the years women are standing up and speaking more, groups of women are tackling the male dominated local villages. Porn on mobiles is endemic as even the poorest men have mobile phones. But in Delhi there are women only train carriages...calm places where women can relax...many wouldn’t be able to work if they didn’t exist. The contrasts are huge rich /poor, caste, and male and female. But most people are charming and polite, when not hassling for tiny money.
My experiences of the Hijras is not good....on trains for example , they are bullying men in drag who pass up and down threatening people for money. I have only had one incident of physical touching and I managed to land a punch...later saw same man arrested. I was lucky. What is really difficult is the overwhelming numbers of men on the streets..feels very unbalanced. And women tend to stay home. But I personally feel safer in India than in most Uk cities these days( while recognizing my privilege of course) and I know this is is not true for millions of women there.

Oh a slight tangent ... One of my favourite books is Sex and Power by Indian feminist Rita Banerji. She raises some interesting ideas around the conflicted relationship that Indian culture has with sex and women.

Social mores cycle through extremely conservative and punitive to very liberal and hedonistic and back.

She looks at different eras - Vedic, Buddhist, Colonialist, the Golden period etc.

Some excerpts from the book can be read here
sexandpower.wordpress.com/excerpt/