Another SNP member having to resign due to ‘antisemitism’

[Birdsfoottrefoil]

Denise Findley:

www.heraldscotland.com/news/18080232.new-snp-resignation-alleged-anti-semitism/

I suspect it is no coincidence that these posts have come to light when you read who has been supporting her. However, her posts were certainly ill-advised. Israel as a state can be rightly criticise but comparing it to Nazis is never going to read well and your point will immediately be lost in the comparison. Is it antisemitism or just offensive?

The problem is people who speak out and go against the grain to raise genuine issues of concern are also those who are generally less guarded in what they say.

I agree, the use of language is the issue. I don’t agree this is anti Semitic, but I do think she should have been more thoughtful in her language. I would be really interested to hear from people if they feel this is anti Semitic. More open discussion is needed.

Another casualty of the culling of anyone pro-women in the SNP by the wee woke misogynists.

It is anti-Semitic to call the Jewish nation, Nazis.
How is this even in doubt ?

It is very sad that there is anti-Semitism in the SNP; it reflects an acceptance of anti-Semitism more broadly.

Israeli women and girls are our sisters, just as Palestinian women and girls are our sisters. We can care about, and agitate for, the rights of Palestinian women and girls without calling Israeli Jewish women the name of those that sought to wipe them from the face of the earth.

GC feminism needs to root out its own tolerance of anti_Semitism.

There is a civil war about to break out in the SNP where the misogynists will find out exactly how popular their some-women-have-penises horseshit is among the rank and file.

Antisemitism is being weaponised, since it worked so well against Jeremy Corbyn. Lots of people in the SNP have tweeted something intemperate about Gaza. Only the gender critical ones are being targeted.

Yes I understand that it would be anti Semitic to call the Jewish nation Nazis (or any other derogatory term). But there is a distinction between the nation and the state. The criticism here is of the state. I also think it is grossly offensive to use the Nazis in reference to the state of Israel.

If the actions of the state of Israel were compared to other brutal states that subjugated certain groups of people would that be antisemitic or a criticism of the actions of the state?

It's the specific actions of successive Iraeli GOVERNMENTS that we can and should critique.

Critiquing the state is no different to critiquing the nation. IMO.

I don't see that this is difficult or contentious in any way, and if any politician or aspiring politician who wanted my vote continued to be wedded to their right to critique the 'Jewish state', as opposed to the actions of particular governments, I'd refuse them my vote, whether or not our values aligned elsewhere.

I'm not suggesting these tweets/statement may not have been dug up in the service of other agendas, but ffs, how hard is it to avoid anti-Semistism ?! If I stood as a GC candidate, no-one could use my anti-Semitic statements against me, because I don't make them! Should that not be the standard ?

The criticism here is of the state.

Do you know who compares the Jewish nation-state of Israel to the Nazis?

Antisemites.

And you know exactly why.

It's always a pleasure seeing an SNP MP/ candidate behaving like an idiot and anything which loses them votes is fine by me. I can't see the full Herald story so here's The Sun's take on it.

This woman was supposed to be involved in party discipline yet she is contributing to a crowdfunder for Neale Hanvey?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/5029421/snp-member-probing-neale-hanvey-anti-jewish-quits-israel-nazi/amp/

If The Sun report is accurate I'm struggling to see how one could possibly have sympathy for her. If I were the OP I'd be embarrassed at having put inverted commas round antisemitism.

If I were the OP I'd be embarrassed at having put inverted commas round antisemitism.

I felt really sad when I saw the inverted commas.

BlackForestCake

"Antisemitism is being weaponised, since it worked so well against Jeremy Corbyn."

Oh do fuck off.

Stop with the "weaponising racism" shit.

Pointing out politicians being racist isn't "weaponising" it.

If politicians don't want to have their racism pointed out they should...er...stop being racist.

Can't believe that the people who object to the racism are the ones being attacked here, while the racists are being presented as the victims (of their own racism!).

And for avoidance of doubt, yes of course it's fucking racist to compare the Jewish state to the Nazis. That's hardly rocket science. The Nazis murdered 2/3 of European Jews in less than 6 years. Horrifically, deliberately, methodically.

To compare that to Israeli actions against Palestinians is beyond ludicrous. It's outrageous, disgusting, deliberately offensive, and yes, extremely racist.

And for the record, don't pretend to care about women's rights while attacking the rights and safety of Jewish women.

Ok, when I stay state I mean government, and when I refer to actions of the state of Israel I mean through legislation, police, army. And when I say ‘other brutal states’ I refer to governments/police/army not the people of those countries. This is a standard use of the word ‘state’, I am sorry if you took it to mean the people.

Do you think the government, police and army are made up of people not of that country?

Or do you accept that as Israel’s population is 75% Jewish, that if you compare the army/police/government to Nazis, that will cover a lot of Jewish people?

Why does israel get constantly singled out for criticism in a way other countries/governments with dubious HRights records do not? Why choose nazi to use against Israel and Israeli Jews?

Ah, Birds, so words will mean what you say they mean, not what they actually do mean.

How very, very convenient.

So the Jewish State = a handful of "bad Jews" that you don't like.

Thu allowing you (in your head) to get away with calling the Jewish State "Nazis".

Because calling Jews by the name of their mass-murderers isn't remotely offensive.

And this, in a nutshell, is why I couldn't ever vote for a party led by Corbyn.

Because this is what he and his cronies have normalised in Labour and across the left. In just a few short years, anti-Semitism has been become so normalised that people like Birds or BlackForestCake will have the nerve to imagine they are on the left rather than out there with the ultra-racists.

I did not compare them to Nazis, I think it is grossly offensive to do so. The inverted commas around antisemitism were because I don’t think it is clear that antisemitism was the real reason behind her being targeted and forced to resign, it was not a reference to whether or not her comments were antisemetic.

Do you think it is legitimate to criticise the treatment of the Palestinians? And if so how should this be done?

As for other countries with dubious human rights records; yes these should also be held to account and they often are, but they may not be as much due to a number of factors: distance, fewer cultural/historical links, racism, instability/wars in the area, less visibility, strategic importance of the country, how much people feel able to influence events...

And if so how should this be done?

Without reference to Nazis? that still leaves you with a lot of options.

You might not think it’s antisemitic, but the IHRA definition of antisemitism thinks it is, and I suspect that the people who came up with that definition know a lot more about antisemitism and antisemites than you.

"I don’t think it is clear that antisemitism was the real reason behind her being targeted and forced to resign"

Oh do fuck off.

She REPEATEDLY compared and defended comparing Israel to the Nazis.

I can't be bothered to waste any more time explaining to you why that is grotesquely offensive and anti-Semitic. And if you are defending that, then you yourself are blatantly anti-Semitic.

I don't think you "ask questions" in good faith. You know perfectly well that this blatantly racist.

words will mean what you say they mean, not what they actually do mean

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/state

This is probably a good time to bring out Sartre's handy quote on the Nazis.

NB This also applies handily to TRAs. (Substitute TRAs or AWAs for "anti-Semites".)

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

Why choose nazi to use against Israel and Israeli Jews?

Yes. China is currently approximating elements of Nazism in the internment, torture and death in 'camps' of an entire categorty of 'undesirables' - Uighurs - yet I hear no-one choosing to describe the Chinese state as 'Nazis'.

Jews and women - the two groups called 'Nazis' by the left. Shame.

Apologies, that should read Sartre's handy quote on anti-Semites.

It's a very useful quote for sealions of all stripes though.

Without reference to Nazis

I have never said the use of reference to Nazis is appropriate!

I’m suspicious with people who criticize Israel but have no criticism for Hamas or the rockets constantly being launched at Israel. Yes, Israelis are paranoid (with good reason) and think Palestinians and many of it’s neighbours would wipe them out if they had the means. Israel is not above criticism - but neither are Hamas and the intentions of many Palestinians