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Original poster

Another SNP member having to resign due to ‘antisemitism’

90 replies

Birdsfoottrefoil · 04/12/2019 21:00

Denise Findley:

www.heraldscotland.com/news/18080232.new-snp-resignation-alleged-anti-semitism/

I suspect it is no coincidence that these posts have come to light when you read who has been supporting her. However, her posts were certainly ill-advised. Israel as a state can be rightly criticise but comparing it to Nazis is never going to read well and your point will immediately be lost in the comparison. Is it antisemitism or just offensive?

The problem is people who speak out and go against the grain to raise genuine issues of concern are also those who are generally less guarded in what they say.

OP posts:
Bartlet · 05/12/2019 17:06

And people defending her because she’s GC. People can be GC (good) and also anti-Semitic (bad). Just because she has sensible views on some matters shouldn’t have people defending the indefensible. This distinction seems to have been lost on many members of the labour party too

2Rebecca · 05/12/2019 17:11

I find the recent rise of anti-Jewish and Israeli sentiment bizarre. No-one I know is talking about Judaism and Israel. Why has this suddenly become a thing now? Many people feel uncomfortable with some of Israel's actions like the Jewish settlements near or on the occupied territories and the fact that the occupied territories are still occupied but I don't get why so many people get quite so worked up about Israel rather than China Turkey Saudi Arabia etc and why this seems to have grown arms and legs now. There aren't very many Jews in Scotland so it seems an odd thing for SNP members to get worked up about.

Coyoacan · 05/12/2019 17:19

I hear that any criticism of George Soros is also anti-semitic? Most people do not even know that Soros is Jewish.

Fieldofgreycorn · 05/12/2019 17:28

Oh for goodness sake of course it’s anti Semitic.

Criticise Israel’s behaviour towards Palestinians by all means. Call them fascists even (if you must).

But calling them Nazi is anti Semitic. It refers specifically to the Nazi party, whose policy was extermination of the Jews.

MockersFactCheckMN · 05/12/2019 17:29

I hear that any criticism of George Soros is also anti-semitic?

You heard wrong.

"George Soros wears terrible suits and needs a haircut." - Not Anti-Semitic.

"George Soros is part of a global conspiracy of financiers that controls the weather..." - Anti-Semitic.

Fieldofgreycorn · 05/12/2019 17:33

inverted commas round antisemitism.

I forgot to comment about that as well. Stands out a mile doesn’t it.
Like ‘racism’.

Bartlet · 05/12/2019 18:23

Many on the left champion the Palestinian cause.

Apart from the obvious and undisputed humanitarian aspect, it allows them to show allegiance to the plucky underdog against the cruel state (David vs Goliath) as well as displaying blatant antisemitism which they defend under the banner of championing the plucky underdog. Win win situation for them. Been going on for years.

MockersFactCheckMN · 05/12/2019 18:27

Many on the left champion the Palestinian cause.

Which is ironic, when the modern state of Israel was founded by socialists, and on the other side you have Fatah, dominated by the old landowning families who sold the land to the Zionists in the first place, and Hamas who are reactionary homophobic misogynist racists who think the world is run via a global network of Lions Clubs.

Toorahtoorahaye · 05/12/2019 21:51

I’d say generally Scotland is pro palestinian - anti israeli - been that way since i remember back to the 80s so the views expressed by these SNP candidates aren’t unusual or unpopular. Scotland naturally supports what it sees as the underdog - though most folk if they found themselves and their families (their daughters and LGBT relatives) suddenly dropped in the area would of course run to Israel for protection of a secular democratic state rather than the protection and rules of Hamas - but such is hypocrisy with the safety of living in a safe free country like the UK

JanesKettle · 05/12/2019 21:56

It's hard to see how much more 'underdog' a people can get, than to have been subject to vicious and vile racism for centuries, and within living memory, to have had 6 million of you wiped out in a genocide.

It's also pretty 'underdog' to be surrounded by nations who think your nation has no right to exist.

Short memories and easy feels, I reckon, on the left.

Fraggling · 05/12/2019 22:08

Well I'm a gc old school feminist and a raging lefty

Read the link in the op, fucking hell. Outrageous comments and quite right she's gone. I'm amazed that someone in politics thinks it's even remotely OK to say that shit. Good that she did though, otherwise we'd be none the wiser as to what she was thinking.

Toorahtoorahaye · 05/12/2019 22:14

Irony is i suspect those who reported her for her comments probably agree with her comments and views - on Israel anyway

Fraggling · 05/12/2019 22:16

Not short memories and easy feels. Would be nice to think so.

It's just anti semitism. Dressed up in excuses.

The Labour response to all this ie corbyn has been hopeless.
This woman's words were outrageous.
Can't believe people are thinking what she said is OK :/

Toorahtoorahaye · 05/12/2019 22:26

It's also pretty 'underdog' to be surrounded by nations who think your nation has no right to exist.

folk don’t seem to have the imagination to realize the extent that trauma and legitimate threat has played in creating the Israeli mindset - seeing your whole family wiped out - having the legitimate paranoia of being surrounded by neighbours who hate you and want to wipe you and your children out, neighbours who raise their children to hate you and want you wipe you out. Most folk in the UK have never faced or had to deal with this level of threat.

It’s frustrating that both sides have chosen the likes of Netanyahu and Hamas to lead them.

Imnobody4 · 05/12/2019 22:26

I've just read the comments on the article. SNP obviously has as big a problem as Labour.

Toorahtoorahaye · 05/12/2019 22:37

It’s not an SNP problem - it’s a common view held by many scottish people who are pretty black and white on the subject as shown by the reaction of scottish football fans here supporting Palestine. m.youtube.com/watch?v=HlvEros0ML4

Bartlet · 05/12/2019 22:49

Parts of Scottish society. Not all. Pro SNP, Labour and Celtic supporting. The Unionist supporters less so.

xxyzz · 06/12/2019 00:00

Thank you to all the non anti-Semites on this thread!

It is a relief to see that there are still decent, normal people who haven't fallen into a woke pit of nonsense and festering racism.

It doesn't make the daily grind in encountering endless low-level anti-Semitism any better or make the feeling in the pit of my stomach go away, but it does make it all a bit more bearable.

Goosefoot · 06/12/2019 03:47

I'm not comfortable with making a very hard line around the definition of state and particular governments, the word state can be used in a way that's very close to the sense of government and quite different from the idea of a people. You have to look at context to know what people mean. And for that matter there are Israelis and people who are very pro-Israel who will talk about it in terms that conflate those two things as well.

I would think it would be obviously quite insensitive to throw around the word Nazi to describe Israeli policy or any of the ideologies that lie behind those policies. I would tend to compare something to Naziism when I thought it was really very similar in ideology, but many people seem to use it to describe ideas they think are oppressive which is not helpful. However, I suspect that when some say this, they feel that certain Zionist ideologies have a view of the person that is similar to facist ideas. I would not like to throw such terms around but in a serious discussion or political analysis I don't think it's anti-Semitic to ask questions about things like that.

WeDieAndSeeBeautyReign · 06/12/2019 09:24

Even if this conspiracy theory is true it does not make it wrong to boot out candidates who are antisemitic- which these 2 clearly are. Cherry and Macalpine won't be booted out for that reason because they aren't antisemitic.

For those of you who support the SNP you might want to have a wee think about why you support a party , which according to the apologists on here for Findlay and the other one, tolerates antisemitism as long as it isn't combined with being gender critical. It's not an attractive look.

Gwenhwyfar · 06/12/2019 09:34

" the IHRA definition of antisemitism thinks it is, and I suspect that the people who came up with that definition know a lot more about antisemitism and antisemites than you."

That doesn't make them automatically right. I don't agree that criticising the Israeli state is necessarily anti-semitic. I don't agree that not agreeing with Zionism makes someone anti-semitic either.

Bartlet · 06/12/2019 09:57

And here we go again. No one is saying that you can’t criticise the state of Israel. No one.

What we are pointing out is that you can’t call them Nazis as that is anti Semitic.

It’s really not difficult.

Fraggling · 06/12/2019 10:35

'That doesn't make them automatically right. I don't agree that criticising the Israeli state is necessarily anti-semitic. I don't agree that not agreeing with Zionism makes someone anti-semitic either.'

Wow.

Case in point.

What the woman said was appalling and its right she's been booted.

The amount of people making excuses / m trying to misdirect in mind boggling.

I think a lot of people never stopped being racist / anti semitic etc and now they feel able to talk openly again. In a way that's good rather than it being underground. But also shocking.

noblegiraffe · 06/12/2019 11:09

I don't agree that criticising the Israeli state is necessarily anti-semitic

Fucksake. No one, not one person, has said that simply criticising the Israeli state is antisemitic. So who are you disagreeing with?

You’ve quoted me talking about how comparisons to the Nazis is antisemitic.